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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#31

Post by adekok »

koolba wrote: post #30

What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, US…

something something democracy.

The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale.

Which the mostly are right now, but at least they have to pay lip service to the people. Once that's gone, the culture of the country will change enormously. And not for the better.

See William Shirer's "Collapse of the Third Republic" for what happens to countries in this situation. It's less well known than "The rise and fall of the third reich", but I found it a lot more informative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collapse_of_the_Third_Repu...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#32

Post by kls »

planetjones wrote: post #21

Is this disagreeing with Blake Irvine. See https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02... This is the man who refers to H1B visas as genius visas. I have worked with many Indian outsourcing companies and while talented people do exist, calling their employees genius is wholly inaccurate (as would be calling most software devs in the Western world genius). I did laugh when I read irving's original pos…

The problem is the incentive system.

I have never been known for my lack of directness and in given so, I used to work with an Indian developer who was very good at his job. So one day I just flat out asked him, I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers suck, his response floored me.

Without missing a beat he responded, look it's a misaligned incentive system. When I go back to India the first question I am asked is how many people do you manage. If I go on a date, it's the first words out of a fathers mouth.

He went on to tell me that you see Indian has remains of the cast system still culturally in place and this stems from that way of thinking, but it has morphed into changing your cast by moving up the corporate ladder. The fastest way to managing people is IT given it's over representation in the Indian economy. So what you have is a bunch of would be MBA's getting tech degrees so they can do their time and make it to management. They have no passion for technology and look at it as doing their residency for management.

Then he looked at me and said, with a laugh. Put Simply they go into IT to get laid. Whereas I went into IT to become and American, because and Indian guy with citizenship is John Don (he meant Don Juan).

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#33

Post by mac01021 »

koolba wrote: post #30

What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, US…

Considering things from the point of view of the immigrant, the current h1b system seems to me like the only route to immigration for a person who is not exceptionally skilled or wealthy or connected. So there are definitely people who would like to immigrate who would lose out if it became an auction.

I'm not saying those people should necessarily be a major consideration, but you did say "everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor".

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#34

Post by adekok »

ganeshkrishnan wrote: post #5
aaron-lebo wrote: post #3

Have there been attempts at pumping H1B money and similar efforts into schools? I've always wondered if we want minorities to code and we are worried about job loss in the US, why not stop dumping money into hiring foreigners and instead dump it into CS programs at community colleges? It would take some time before you could build up a domestic work force as talented as foreigners, but would it not solve several issu…

It's not the business responsibility to train Americans/Europeans/Indians. A business has to respond to it's shareholders who don't ask the question "How many of our nationality/religion/race have you employed" but "What's the share price" It's the government's responsibility to train people and H1b failure is government's responsibility. Most companies dont even pay tax, do you really expect them to hire ONLY Americ…

> "What's the share price"

Which is at least partially based on public perception of the company.

> It's the government's responsibility to train people

That's... a weird thing to say. I like to think of myself as an adult. I chose the discipline to study, got loans (yes), graduated, and paid them off. The university I went to was private. At no time did the government tell me what to do.

It is the peoples responsibility to go into programs that will get the decent jobs. If those programs are full, they can ask for new colleges or universities to be made. Or, they can study themselves.

I've hired a number of self-taught programmers. They're not much different from people with university degrees.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#35

Post by guitarbill »

rodionos wrote: post #24

Number of H-1B visas issued for Indian citizens, 1997-2015: https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/1bc51064 Top H-1B countries: https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/04040e14

That's really useful data. As always with statistics, I've thought about what factors could influence the data. One is population, so the obvious thing would be to weight the number of visas issued (which should be proportional to the number of visas applied for if it's a lottery) with the population of that country, specifically the number of people with bachelor degrees or higher.

But even with weights controlling for educated population, from rough calculations I've done, H1-B visas seem to be issued disproportionally often to Indian nationals.

If it were somehow possible to see the average H1-B wage per nationality, that would also be very interesting.

But neither would answer why that's the case, a simple (and probably wrong explanation) could be that Europeans are simply less likely to wait for H1-B visas given the benefits inherently provided in those countries. (Edit: What I mean is you still can't tell if this disproportionality is a good or bad thing, only that there is such a disproportionality.)

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#36

Post by distances »

expertentipp wrote: post #18
Swizec wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Slovenia an engineer with 10 years of experience makes $24,000/year. In Silicon Valley an engineer with 0.5 years of experience makes $100,000/year. Gee, I wonder why businesses want to employ foreigners and why foreigners want to work for US companies. Hmmmmm

The IT salaries in post-Communist EU countries is like getting spat in the face.

Surely applies to all salaries in the countries, though?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#37

Post by koolba »

mac01021 wrote: post #33
koolba wrote: post #30

What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, US…

Considering things from the point of view of the immigrant, the current h1b system seems to me like the only route to immigration for a person who is not exceptionally skilled or wealthy or connected. So there are definitely people who would like to immigrate who would lose out if it became an auction. I'm not saying those people should necessarily be a major consideration, but you did say "everyone besides companies…

> Considering things from the point of view of the immigrant, the current h1b system seems to me like the only route to immigration for a person who is not exceptionally skilled or wealthy or connected. So there are definitely people who would like to immigrate who would lose out if it became an auction.

Sure but the point isn't to provide a side door for immigration, it's supposed to be for filling short falls in labor that cannot be accommodated locally.

> I'm not saying those people should necessarily be a major consideration, but you did say "everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor".

That's correct though I was specifically thinking from the perspective of the USA, its citizens/permanent residents, and its corporations (both those trying to get H1-B applicants and those that aren't).

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#38

Post by unityByFreedom »

kls wrote: post #32
planetjones wrote: post #21

Is this disagreeing with Blake Irvine. See https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02... This is the man who refers to H1B visas as genius visas. I have worked with many Indian outsourcing companies and while talented people do exist, calling their employees genius is wholly inaccurate (as would be calling most software devs in the Western world genius). I did laugh when I read irving's original pos…

The problem is the incentive system. I have never been known for my lack of directness and in given so, I used to work with an Indian developer who was very good at his job. So one day I just flat out asked him, I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers suck, his response floored me. Without missing a beat he responded, look it's a misaligned incentive system. When I go back to India the first questi…

That's a fascinating perspective. Thanks for sharing!

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#39

Post by pg314 »

ismail-khan wrote: post #26
barrkel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs aren't a zero-sum game. There's no fixed quantity of jobs that are being taken by immigrants and could be filled by American students appropriately trained. An industry grows when it has supply and demand. There's nearly infinite demand for IT, the way I see it - everything is turning into information. The primary supply for IT is people. Immigration will increase the size of the industry and increase the number…

Another way to look at it: if restrictions on high skill tech immigration tighten, then tech companies that would have been founded in America will instead be founded elsewhere. This is more true of software than of any other industry, because software is built mostly with human capital which can cross borders fairly easily.

I agree with your conclusion (that tech companies will move), but don't agree with your reasoning.

It is exactly the opposite. Capital crosses borders much more easily than human capital. There are all kinds of impediments for human capital moving (visas, lack of money for travel, ties to families and friends). That is why, if it becomes even harder (because of travel restrictions), that tech companies will move.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#40

Post by koolba »

adekok wrote: post #31
koolba wrote: post #30

What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, US…

something something democracy . The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale. Which the mostly are right now, but at least they have to pay lip service to the people. Once that's gone, the culture of the country will…

> something something democracy.

> The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale.

What's not democratic about optimizing need based upon projected tax revenue? Are we discriminating against "poor companies"? Would you classify companies that allow their employees to work remotely doing the same? (ex: I'm sure Google can pay more for a remote employee than any local company in Podunk USA).

I personally have no horse in the H1-B race. I don't employ any nor do I intend to apply for visas. The vast majority of citizens and permanent residents in the USA are in that group as well. It's in their interests to raise the price of said foreign labor. I'd say that's very democratic and keeping the price of it artificially low is short changing democracy.

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