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Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

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Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#631

Post by MBCook »

shmerl wrote: post #611
MBCook wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say people liked it, I said they were used to it. It's the status-quo so it doesn't get questioned the way it would if it was a completely new concept.

Yes, I agree that it's not questioned enough, which is a problem in itself.

When the hardware was so specialized it made a lot more sense. Now that everyone has nearly identical hardware it's even stupider.

On the plus side platform exclusives almost totally gone outside of the game is manufactured by the console makers themselves.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#632

Post by Fej »

NickGerleman wrote: post #9

"The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Metal from Apple, and Vulkan from the Khronos Group. While these technologies have similar design concepts, unfortunately none are available across all platforms." So Apple, the only company not supporting Vulkan on their platforms, is complaining that there isn't a cross-platform solution?

I love how they mention Direct3D and Vulkan in the same breath as Metal.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#633

Post by fulafel »

pcwalton wrote: post #286
vvanders wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of stuff if you want to go native or are you just talking web technologies? FWIW there's tons of things build on OpenGL ES 2(all of Android for instance). If you're going to write something to run on a wide range of platforms you're either going to deal with least-common denominator(GLES2) or write per-platform layers(like we'd do on consoles/etc).

> If you're going to write something to run on a wide range of platforms you're either going to deal with least-common denominator(GLES2) or write per-platform layers(like we'd do on consoles/etc). You say that like it's a good thing! The point of WebGL is to put that pain on the browser vendor. OpenGL ES 2 is incredibly limited, as you know. Yeah, you can do a lot with it, but there's a ton of stuff you can't do (te…

Why consider just WebGL 1 (ES 2 feature set)? WebGL 2 is already shipping, even in wildly optimistic scenarios any successor is going to take many years to surpass it in browser support. In WebGL 2 you get better support for compute, integers, dynamic loops, halfway to tessellation (transform feedback), etc. And like with WebGL 1, more features will come incrementally as WebGL extensions.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#634

Post by fulafel »

aseipp wrote: post #596
ricardobeat wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you agree that the main reason Vulkan is not the best way to achieve those goals is because Microsoft and Apple are refusing to support it? This is circular reasoning.

No, they don't. They don't think it's the best way because it hits a fundamental API impedence mismatch with the browser (it's too low level, and probably not the right fit for JavaScript as an API - Vulkan being a standard does not mean we should senselessly emulate it), it's not at all clear the security model matches what the browser actually wants (part of being too low level, but also not being designed with the…

Nit: WebGL 2 already happened, Firefox shipped it first and it's almost almost done in Chrome too (though disabled by default).

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#635

Post by pjmlp »

sydd wrote: post #630
pjmlp wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the Windows 10 applications like the file explorer and Edge are UWP. Also the majority of all the new OS APIs are UWP only.

I dontknow, what are you trying to prove? Its a fact that from the new, low-level APIs (Vulkan, Metal, DX 12) Vulkan has the most widespread support: Vulkan: Its on most Windows PCs, most Linux PCs, on newer Android devices, and on the Nintendo Switch. Also there are rumours of the next PS going with Vulkan too. DX12: most Windows PCs, XBox One. Metal: iOS/OSX only. So its clearly the future on the desktop market. Ob…

> Vulkan: Its on most Windows PCs, most Linux PCs, on newer Android devices, and on the Nintendo Switch. Also there are rumours of the next PS going with Vulkan too.

The most Windows PCs have Intel cards, which only have a beta driver available.

The majority of AMD and NVidia owners with Vulkan support, are on Windows 10, which supports DX12 anyway.

Newer Android devices, means Android 7, which thanks to how update process works, a whooping 0.7% market share, composed of Google Pixel, Smasung S7 and LG v20.

Nintendo has added Vulkan support to Switch, but they are only testing waters, the actual API that allows to make full use of the available hardware is called NVN.

Sony, I really doubt it. The PS4 APIs, the successor of LibCGM is actually quite close to DX 12 and the PS 3 experience with OpenGL ES wasn't that great.

http://sandstormgames.ca/blog/tag/libgcm/

Vulkan is still catching up with DX12 for stuff like multi-GPU processing.

Linux PCs are just 2% on Steam, and drivers are kind of working, hardly a value proposition to make to most professional game studios.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynyO3O3zd3E

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#636

Post by HNLogInShit »

ioquatix wrote: post #298
om2 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence for your claim that Vulkan is best? Metal and D3D 12 are also low-level APIs designed for performance. I've seen no evidence that Vulkan is better on platforms where there are drivers for two different APIs.

Well, I guess you know all this but you've asked me to elaborate. So, in terms of compatibility you have: DX12: Windows only. Metal: macOS/iOS only. Vulkan: cross-platform and cross-vendor. Windows 7/8/10, Android, Linux, MoltenVK supports iOS/macOS with a wrapper. That's a big win for Vulkan IMHO. Valve also agrees with this assertion. In terms of performance, I don't think Metal is even a contender, given how bad m…

"I don't think Metal is even a contender, given how bad macOS hardware is compared to Wintel"

That is BS. You're judging an API based on the hardware it tends to run on?

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#637

Post by Strom »

yellowapple wrote: post #620
Strom wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess he means that Microsoft isn't aggressive enough in distributing these drivers via Windows Update. Definitely the case with older Windows versions like Windows 7 where Windows Update doesn't seem to offer GPU driver updates at all if you have manually installed something like the driver cd that was in the GPU box. However with Windows 10 they have gotten more aggresive in updating these drivers. [1] Still, a l…

"Still, a lot of people on older Windows versions where the GPU drivers are likely out of date enough not to contain Vulkan." My guess would be that these same drivers would be out of date enough not to contain DX12, so if that's really the target, then there needs to be a fallback to OpenGL and/or an older DirectX.

DirectX 12 is only available on Windows 10, so that's the case regardless of drivers.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#638

Post by vetinari »

pjmlp wrote: post #605
vetinari wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not explicitly. It is used by platform libraries that these application use. Given that they are provided by the platform vendor - the same that pushes DX - it's no wonder, that it was being pushed there. CAD, GIS, or other applications that need to use 3D explicitly, on the other hand.... Basically only Autodesk ventured there, with 3ds Max and AutoCAD (since 2015).

Well, Autodesk products are market leaders, probably Catia is the only alternative.

There are actually many CAD packages, with different levels of complexity, from Siemens NX to VariCAD, plus myriads of domain-specific ones, like ArchiCAD.

For example, most of our customers prefer MicroStation, for some reason (no, we are not Bentley shop ;).

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#639

Post by microcolonel »

pjmlp wrote: post #524
vetinari wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, those Windows 7 and 8 machines with AMD and Nvidia GPUs do support Vulkan.

Yes, with these wonderful set of games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Vulkan_supp... Versus these ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_12_...

I'm sure you can see that 2/5 (approaching half) of the Direct3D 12 titles were published by Microsoft themselves.

And actually, by the numbers there are more titles on Vulkan than there are titles not released by Microsoft on D3D12.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#640

Post by johnsmith21006 »

Gorbzel wrote: post #576
Baeocystin wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I agree with you. The most recent macbook 'pro' release has caused a majority of the devs I know say 'screw this' and trade their macbooks in for surfaces. Not exaggerating. Apple should be concerned.

Apple sold a record breaking amount of tbMBPs in the quarter since its release. The HN echo chamber is strong, but its silly anecdotes don't reflect reality.

Not true on Apple selling a record amount of Macs. Apparently they added 7 days to the quarter versus a year before and therefore Mac sales declined again. For 2016 Mac sales also declined compared to 2015. Apple Mac sales declining is tied to the lack of new OS X software, IMO. Otherwise why decline?
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