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Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

webkit.org

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Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#591
post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason why DX had almost zero adaptation outside games. Maybe it is not that good API, if you need to support your app for a few years too. Games are fire and forget.

Actually 2D and text rendering, WPF rendering, UWP Composition API, UI animation support. All of them used by most desktop applications on Windows, including image, video and 3D editing applications.

Not explicitly. It is used by platform libraries that these application use. Given that they are provided by the platform vendor - the same that pushes DX - it's no wonder, that it was being pushed there.

CAD, GIS, or other applications that need to use 3D explicitly, on the other hand.... Basically only Autodesk ventured there, with 3ds Max and AutoCAD (since 2015).

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers are bothered by games that get released much later (or not at all) on iOS instead of Android, or the other way around. They're not directly bothered by the cause, but they sure as hell hate the symptoms.

I don't like it, but I think consumers are pretty accepting of platform exclusives.

Not really. Gamers don't like exclusives, when they are excluded especially. Why would they like to be excluded?

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#593
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like it, but I think consumers are pretty accepting of platform exclusives.

If you're a gamer, then you're quite used to this going back all the way to the old Sega vs Nintendo days. It may be annoying but it's something we by and large accept.

Common usage of crooked practices doesn't mean anyone likes them. Let alone encourage any of such trash.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, do you really believe, that Apple wants to artifical cripple the web? I see, that they hypothetically might have motivation, to do so ... but this is not valid, since the web is inferior to native implemantations in the first place! The "only" advantage of the web is, that it is more or less, cross plattform.

As far as i can remember, they've been consistently behind on support for emerging web technologies (since the app store came out), it just doesn't seen to be in their business interests to keep up.

Not really. What about MSE / DASH and touch events? Apple were often hindering adoption if new technologies, if they had their own locked up / patented alternatives, which they didn't want to undermine my accepting open competition.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#595
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are pretty subjective assertions. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

Do you have any evidence for your claim that Vulkan is best? Metal and D3D 12 are also low-level APIs designed for performance. I've seen no evidence that Vulkan is better on platforms where there are drivers for two different APIs.

maybe you should crawl back up inside the infinite loop, and stop interacting with the rest of the world, just like the rest of the apptards you claim to work with.

you're all idiots.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#596
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best 3D standard for the web is one that can be delivered cross-platform with high performance, high quality, and no need for end-user driver installs. And that can be made safe and secure without losing too much performance. In exploring the issue, we concluded that basing it 100% on Vulkan wasn't the best way to achieve these goals. The response wasn't about how Vulkan was good for the web, but rather about how…

Don't you agree that the main reason Vulkan is not the best way to achieve those goals is because Microsoft and Apple are refusing to support it? This is circular reasoning.

No, they don't.

They don't think it's the best way because it hits a fundamental API impedence mismatch with the browser (it's too low level, and probably not the right fit for JavaScript as an API - Vulkan being a standard does not mean we should senselessly emulate it), it's not at all clear the security model matches what the browser actually wants (part of being too low level, but also not being designed with the web's security model in mind), and it requires a lot on the half of users in forms of software support to support 'true' Vulkan as it stands, and it will be difficult to emulate such a low level API and its quirks (it's possibly the lowest level of the 3), which is why WebGPU aims to be a bit higher level. Even on systems like NVidia/Windows with top OpenGL support for years, the variance among OSs, hardware, and cards means e.g. Browsers and developers all implement WebGL in terms of DirectX, not OpenGL, even on suitable platforms. This is simply because the "native" graphics API -- for any platform -- tends to be the one with the most first party support, care, and stability across everything. It doesn't actually matter if you have OpenGL support on Windows, WebGL will still work because of this decision. That means more people can use it. Re-creating this same mistake with Vulkan will likely be costlier, due to it being so much less generic and much more low-level. If we're going to make "WebGL 2.0" happen, whether or not it's actually WebGPU -- it should avoid mistakes like this one.

(It turns out when your software is used by literally billions of people on extremely diverse hardware, sometimes fantasies about driver support from nerds with $2,000 premium machines aren't always true.)

Now that I've said all that: you are now free to continue ignoring literally everything written in the original blog post and ignore everything written by the developers here about its design, and assume whatever you want. That's apparently what people like doing, it seems.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#597
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are wrong on that. Vulkan is a low-level native API, not a JavaScript API for the web. Lots of design work needs to be done. In addition, even on platforms where there are unofficial Vulkan drivers (such as Windows), it's likely the natively available API will still have more complete support and better performance. So either way, we need a cross-platform graphics API. Let's focus this discussion on impro…

The persons in favor of Vulkan in this thread don't have to prove their point, you have. Their solution works, is battle tested, is cross platform and almost an industry standard. Unless you backup the Apple proposal with serious evidences such as : - hard metrics on performance benefits, why you need them, and why you can't improve vulkan to get them; - demonstration of blatant issues with the vulkan API and very go…

> On this one, you are guilty until proven innocent, I'm sorry

Or rather, he's got to refute the null hypothesis.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#598
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Validation layers were created so drivers could remove checks to improve performance. And regardless, properly handling adversarial input is much more involved than just a validation layer.

Yes, you are right, but solving the problem of adversarial input is probably NP. A validation layer can intercept every API call and validate it. It's probably the best you can do. The nice thing about it, is that you could actually use it in many different contexts, since, you know, Vulkan makes it a standard feature of the driver.

It's not NP (whatever that means) if you're allowed to change the API instead of just inserting checks at each call.

Besides, Javascript doesn't really need driver support to intercept function calls...

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#599
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox was just the opposite on Indexed DB/WebSQL. History written by the victors.

Firefox argued that WebSQL was a terrible idea that shouldn't become a standard, and the other vendors eventually agreed, including some that were already shipping it.

Right. "[Firefox] developers apparently being extreme zealots for [IndexedDB] and essentially refusing to implement [WebSQL] for years"

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are apps compatible between platforms That would be an awful experience for the consumers, UI/UX-wise.

And yet somehow web apps, each with their very own shirty UI and UX, that looks and works completely different than the platform you use them from, are doing just fine.

And the vast majority of webapps are shitty UI/UX from a consumer perspective. Doing just fine with shitty UI/EX, because the platform is crippled does not equal the best solution for the user.
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