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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#291

Post by lutorm »

Retric wrote: post #260
jessespears wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upper bound isn't limited by the number of dollars in circulation. The upper bound is limited by what's economically feasible. The outcome of the theoretical Alabama community college language teacher is that the language program just gets cut. The fees for a niche program wouldn't support a highly-paid faculty member.

> the language program just gets cut. And then what? Yes, an Alabama community collage can't pay for a language teacher, that's a fairly normal problem for community collages. It does not suggest there is somehow a market failure. PS: I think you miss understood my upper bound. I doubt people want an immigration policy based on filling any jobs that pays more than ~30k/year.

So why is this a better outcome than letting them hire one on an H1B? No American loses their job, and a community college program remains, giving people access to education.

I don't see what "market failure" has to do with the H1B at all. Just because the market worked correctly doesn't imply that the outcome was desirable.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#292

Post by kofejnik »

macintux wrote: post #82
sidlls wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be absurd? A highly specialized skill in an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live should command a higher than average wage. Much higher if the situation is so desperate that a foreign worker has to be sought. Also: the majority (by far) of H1-B visas are for technology work. It may not technically be "tech only" but in practice it may as well be.

Have you been through rural Alabama? I suspect the point is less that it's undesirable to live there, than that a high salary for an interpreter simply isn't going to fit in the budget. Why should Facebook's ad tech needs trump the needs of a poor refugee community? Budget size should not be the only virtue signal.

Why should refugee community's desire for a cheap interpreter trump the needs of an engineer who could make 250k at Facebook?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#293

Post by maxerickson »

mc32 wrote: post #280
maxerickson wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying we should have a preference for existing Americans before we handicap foreigners. Yes, I'm saying that it doesn't accomplish the stated goal. Restrictive immigration policy is worse than a more welcoming policy when you consider the impact on all existing Americans. Immigration is the better policy for Americans, it's just that the benefit is spread out across more people than the downside, so it is easy…

So not only are we wrong, but so is every other country on earth. How is it all countries, many of which would like to become relatively more competitive than America, seem to all be making the same mistake you allude to? W/re training. America is responsible for training our own, I don't think we should think we should off load that job to say Canada, and in the same way people's home countries should be responsible…

Other countries tend to have less productive economies than the US. Both overall and per worker. Of the few with higher productivity, most of them have more generous immigration policy than the US has had in recent years.

So yes, you are wrong, both about the impact of immigration here and the impact of closed borders elsewhere.

With the training I see it as a utilitarian issue. If training someone is a net benefit to the US I don't care where they were born. I certainly don't want to leave the benefit sitting on the table just because they weren't born here.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#294

Post by dragonwriter »

maxerickson wrote: post #293
mc32 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not only are we wrong, but so is every other country on earth. How is it all countries, many of which would like to become relatively more competitive than America, seem to all be making the same mistake you allude to? W/re training. America is responsible for training our own, I don't think we should think we should off load that job to say Canada, and in the same way people's home countries should be responsible…

Other countries tend to have less productive economies than the US. Both overall and per worker. Of the few with higher productivity, most of them have more generous immigration policy than the US has had in recent years. So yes, you are wrong, both about the impact of immigration here and the impact of closed borders elsewhere. With the training I see it as a utilitarian issue. If training someone is a net benefit t…

> Other countries tend to have less productive economies than the US. Both overall and per worker.

But often not per worker-hour.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#295

Post by Retric »

lutorm wrote: post #291
Retric wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the language program just gets cut. And then what? Yes, an Alabama community collage can't pay for a language teacher, that's a fairly normal problem for community collages. It does not suggest there is somehow a market failure. PS: I think you miss understood my upper bound. I doubt people want an immigration policy based on filling any jobs that pays more than ~30k/year.

So why is this a better outcome than letting them hire one on an H1B? No American loses their job, and a community college program remains, giving people access to education. I don't see what "market failure" has to do with the H1B at all. Just because the market worked correctly doesn't imply that the outcome was desirable.

It's a market not just one collage.

Some distant collage may chose to pay for such a teacher and then gain students from the community collage who want that instruction. So, in that context your community collage bringing in the H-1B may end up costing an American a job. It could also depress wages for teaching that language discouraging other students from learning it thus extending the shortage over time. Alternatively, the demand may simply not be there for the language at which point the collage is better off paying for a different type of instruction that more students want.

In the end your H-1B is clearly a boon for that collage. However, if may end up hurting the country overall.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#296

Post by rdtsc »

pm90 wrote: post #187
rdtsc wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would get one from local market for that amount of money. Wait, why? Are you implying foreign workers are not competent and can't be exceptional? Surely it isn't that? Otherwise, sounds like then H1B will finally work as intended, you'd be able higher exceptional people from overseas who might not be available in your area? Maybe there is a distributed systems expert from Argentina or a compiler writer from Ghana…

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though. > Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies.…

> I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though.

Yes it does. I have seen H1B being abused enough times. I was also an international student.

> And not just to the bay area where such salaries are common.

You know what else I have seen, lots and lots of very competent, driven, and smart American students. Also interviewed them. The idea that there are none and we have to hire from overseas using a visa process is ridiculous.

> 60k is NOT CHEAP LABOR in most parts of the country!

You are right there. I agree with that part in general. But if it is not cheap and is a decent salary, there should be no problem filling it with American laborers. Computer Science degrees and education has become more popular. I don't see H1B workforce as being immensely and uniquely qualified such that it would be impossible to find anyone in a country of 300M+ people with top universities in the world. If there are such cases, I posit $130k is a low end start for their salaries.

> While Americans might beat their chest and proclaim their uniqueness, they have existed as nation for just over 300 years, while the culture of Europe and much of Asia goes back thousands of years.

To be specific I was replying to the critique that Americans don't have a standing when talking being a "nation" and using that as an argument. 300 years is certainly enough reasons to form a national identity. I think it is silly claiming "You don't have a right to change your H1B visa rules because you are not a nation". Even as an immigrant, that feels a bit over-board.

H1B visas are about filling labor shortages with exceptional talent, that is their goal. Over the years that seems they have been perverted from anything from "Let's help international students who graduate to immigrate" to "I need indentured servants to work for me for X number of years".

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#297

Post by vmarsy »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #159
jacquesm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

>Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration. What about immigration from Kansas to California? We all know these tech companies prefer to hire from Stanford, MIT, and each-other. Why not just hire the proverbial kid from Brooklyn if we're so concerned about migration an…

> We all know these tech companies prefer to hire from Stanford, MIT, and each-other.

Maybe you know, but around tech companies, I see more people from Georgia, Texas, Michigan, South Carolina ... than from Stanford or MIT.

Tech companies need people with tech skills, so if University of Kansas produces skilled CS graduates, they'll also work in tech companies. If they don't, Kansas kids go study to Michigan, Texas, Georgia, MIT, Stanford, and end up working in those tech companies.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#298

Post by unprepare »

pm90 wrote: post #262
unprepare wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!

Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time. I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers , at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not e…

I wrote a whole long thing, but i think its much better to just illustrate my point.

You claim that H1B's:

1. can and should be used for entry level positions, because it is impossible to find entry level employees for programming

2. companies are completely unable to fill programming positions with US employees.

So lets investigate those claims then. Well, good place to start is probably looking at the top job titles of H1B visa holders.[1] Turns out the number 1 title by far, is 'Programmer Analyst' kinda vague, so lets try to dig in and see what that really is.

To do that, we can look for the top H1B visa employers[2] that appears to be Cognizant at 15,680 in 2015, followed by Infosys and TATA.

Well now that we know who the top employer of H1Bs is and what the top job title is, should be pretty easy to find an open position on their job board, right? Then we can look at the requirements for the 'Programmer Analyst' job and see what exactly is so specialized that no US college graduate is capable of accomplishing.

Weirdly, even though they filled over 33,000 of this job merely 2 years ago (an average of almost 100 jobs filled per day!) There is only 1 single job posting for a 'Programmer Analyst'[3]

Even weirder! the requirements for this job:

>Requirement: Basic computer knowledge, Good Communication skills and willing to work in night shifts

Well, that doesnt seem like such a demanding position to me....

Infosys had 0 job listings under that same title, TATA's careers site has no job listings at all[4]

But yeah, maybe you are right, maybe its just a coincidence that the top H1B job title has only 1 single listing across the top 3 H1B visa employers. Better keep letting them hire immigrants, since those stupid college grads 'cant code to save their lives' as you so put it.

[1]http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Top_H-1B_employers_b...

[3]https://cognizant.taleo.net/careersection/1nacorp/jobdetail....

[4]http://www.tata.com/careers/index/Career

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#299

Post by kozikow »

America, UK or others can close their borders all the way they want. Programmer who don't get the Visa won't switch careers, but will be programming in a different country.

As American startup, it's already common to hire people remotely in other country as "contractors". Majority of top 50 Silicon Valley companies has a tech office outside of USA. Continue with closing borders, and center of tech will move somewhere else. Many countries are drooling at having their own Silicon Valley, but American politics treat it as given (same as other areas of American dominance).

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#300

Post by mc32 »

maxerickson wrote: post #293
mc32 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not only are we wrong, but so is every other country on earth. How is it all countries, many of which would like to become relatively more competitive than America, seem to all be making the same mistake you allude to? W/re training. America is responsible for training our own, I don't think we should think we should off load that job to say Canada, and in the same way people's home countries should be responsible…

Other countries tend to have less productive economies than the US. Both overall and per worker. Of the few with higher productivity, most of them have more generous immigration policy than the US has had in recent years. So yes, you are wrong, both about the impact of immigration here and the impact of closed borders elsewhere. With the training I see it as a utilitarian issue. If training someone is a net benefit t…

When you say more generous immigration policies, do they just allow anyone in, or do they try to ensure there is an unmet demand at home? Can I just get a ticket land there and get a job in a desirable sector?
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