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Deniability and Duress

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Re: Deniability and Duress

#61

Post by CJefferson »

mynegation wrote: post #33
tomp wrote: post #30

> Scanning a pinky (or some other fingerprint / combination of fingerprints) might cause the phone to factory reset, or unlock and trigger deletion a specified portion of user data. IANAL, but AFAIK there is a strict line between not providing incriminating evidence (legal, protected under 5th Amendment) and destroying evidence (criminal).

I immediately thought the same thing upon reading. One thing that comes to mind is: automatically triggered data destruction. If laptop or the phone detects non-owner access attempts and destroys data on its own, is it destruction of evidence? Owner did not do it, and it was there just to protect from the real bad guys: corporate spies, identity thieves.

The law often uses intention. Could you convince a jury of your peers you didn't do this just to hide your stuff from law enforcement?

Re: Deniability and Duress

#62

Post by maxerickson »

nicolas_t wrote: post #59
maxerickson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but someone carrying around evidence of crimes with heavier punishments than destruction of evidence is considering a different scenario than someone simply concerned with their privacy.

In the case of journalist covering war crimes, the journalist is not necessarily a "terrible" person. There's a lot of countries where the laws are such that it is not necessarily unethical not to respect them.

Again, sure, I was pointing out an instance where a person might prefer the destruction of evidence charges, not trying to exhaustively list all such situations.

Re: Deniability and Duress

#63

Post by FabHK »

pc86 wrote: post #44
matt4077 wrote: post #11

iPhones require the password(/code) when turned on and (IIRC) under certain other conditions. But I believe this isn't enough considering recent developments. They write: It’s important to note that deniability refers to the ability to deny some plaintext, not the ability to deny that you’re using a deniable algorithm. It's now common for border agents in the US to demand login credentials for social media accounts,…

What countries are only accessible via the US?

None (it's not like Lesotho inside South Africa or San Marino inside Italy). I assume he meant destinations where most international flights go via the US, but not sure that's relevant - I'm pretty sure basically all South American countries have direct flights to Europe or Canada, say.

Re: Deniability and Duress

#64

Post by mysticmarvel »

StavrosK wrote: post #42
mysticmarvel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My iPhone forces password entry after 5 failed attempts at TouchID unlock. If you can quickly thumb the sensor a few times, you can render fingerprint unlock impossible. Better to disable anyway, but it's an option.

Exactly this. If they can force you to give them a fingerprint, but not a password, just reset the phone. You haven't destroyed anything, the data is still there, it's just inaccessible without the password.

One possible threat here could be access being gained another way (court-order to provide text key), then with the device unlock key known being required to try each finger in sequence to identify if you provided a genuine try to unlock the device. Could be seen as obstruction (IANAL).

Re: Deniability and Duress

#65

Post by turc1656 »

"However, the bad news is that hand-typed passwords are increasingly seen as the way of the past; hardware tokens and biometric sensing are considered to be far more usable, and will likely be employed more and more in the future."

Anytime you sacrifice security for convenience or simplicity, you lose. That's why I have no intention of ever using anything other than good ol' alphanumeric passwords that must be entered by hand. Anything that doesn't originate directly from my mind is not really protected at all. If all the government needs to do to grab all my data is take my hand and scan it, or hold my eyeball to a sensor, then it's all pointless.

Re: Deniability and Duress

#66

Post by arde »

tomp wrote: post #30

> Scanning a pinky (or some other fingerprint / combination of fingerprints) might cause the phone to factory reset, or unlock and trigger deletion a specified portion of user data. IANAL, but AFAIK there is a strict line between not providing incriminating evidence (legal, protected under 5th Amendment) and destroying evidence (criminal).

Besides, it would not be useful to trigger reset or deletion because LEOs could take a backup before the procedure.

Re: Deniability and Duress

#67

Post by JackFr »

maxerickson wrote: post #35
tomp wrote: post #30

> Scanning a pinky (or some other fingerprint / combination of fingerprints) might cause the phone to factory reset, or unlock and trigger deletion a specified portion of user data. IANAL, but AFAIK there is a strict line between not providing incriminating evidence (legal, protected under 5th Amendment) and destroying evidence (criminal).

If you are a terrible person with really weird requirements you might prefer the charges related to destruction of evidence to the charges related to the evidence itself. (if you are a terrible person without really weird requirements you avoid capturing or destroy the evidence on an ongoing basis, not after you are caught)

For instance, in New York at least, if you are suspected of DUI and refuse to submit to a breathalyzer test, it is an automatic civil suspension of of you drivers license for I believe two years. If you have prior convictions then and are looking at jail time and a license suspension, the smart play is to refuse to take the test.

Re: Deniability and Duress

#68

Post by falcolas »

gcp wrote: post #39
kybernetikos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US law enforcement can compel you to provide a fingerprint to unlock your phone, but cannot compel you to provide a password. This may be true for normal law enforcement, but if you're at (or perhaps near) the border, the rules are different.

It's been pointed out recently that "near the border" is "100 miles from the border" and the coastline counts as border, so the rules are different for most places in the USA where people actually live.

IIRC, the border is also defined as any airport which receives international flights.

Of course, in practice the border definition isn't actually used in this fashion (that has been made public), but the potential does seem to exist.

Re: Deniability and Duress

#69

Post by matt4077 »

FabHK wrote: post #63
pc86 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What countries are only accessible via the US?

None (it's not like Lesotho inside South Africa or San Marino inside Italy). I assume he meant destinations where most international flights go via the US, but not sure that's relevant - I'm pretty sure basically all South American countries have direct flights to Europe or Canada, say.

It can be prohibitively expensive to find a flight from Europe to the Caribbean or Central America that doesn't involve a stopover in the US.

Re: Deniability and Duress

#70

Post by ansible »

Veratyr wrote: post #29
chillydawg wrote: post #7

Android had user profiles for a while. If you associate different fingerprints or different pin codes with different accounts, you can have your sneaky account with all the warcrime photos and the "open" account which is full of dick pics and selfies, as per usual. Almost no new technology required. This all assumes the border guard is simply going to go through texts, pictures and maybe open up a facebook or similar…

Android still does have user profiles. On Nougat, go to Settings -> Users. You can add profiles and associate a different lock with each (haven't tried fingerprints). Each has different sets of app data and switching between them is kinda obscure if you don't know what to do. Just need to switch user before you get off the plane.

Yes, this is the way to go.

You have to give the thugs something... or else they'll keep after you until you do. So you have to give them some boring but credible data. Wiping the phone is suspicious.

There needs to be a way to unlock the phone at a moment's notice via either profile. And there shouldn't be an easy way to see if there is another profile on the phone.

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