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Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

bbc.com

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Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#161

Post by hvidgaard »

claudius wrote: post #158
hvidgaard wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent. If the company can pay for fines, fine. No need to dissolve them, but the leadership responsible still needs to face a judge. Just because you're part of a corporation, shouldn't mean you get to walk from crimes.

> but the leadership responsible still needs to face a judge There’s your problem, assuming that there is a way for leadership in a company not be responsible. Managers being ‘responsible’ is the only argument for them being paid disproportionally more than the average worker. In turn, a manager should always be responsible for the actions of their underlings all the way to the top, regardless of personal involvement…

There is several layers of leadership. The CEO might say, we need to make a product in this price range, and meeting the new regulations. Several layers below him, are the managers, that goes into the nitty gritty details of the engine and know what the engineers are doing. Is the CEO reponsible if the manager cheated and deliberately hid facts from the upper management, just to please them and make himself look better?

You could argue that they should have a seperate control instance, but that was what they had, and they cheated it anyway.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#162

Post by arethuza »

pasta wrote: post #159
fusiongyro wrote: post #116

There's a local dealer who sells VWs and Mazdas. The Mazdas outsell VW 2:1, but they have 4x as many VW technicians. I had two VWs: a Jetta and a Passat. Both required an astonishing amount of maintenance compared to the Toyota Camry I had before. VW has really mastered the art of "this feels well-engineered" without actually being well-engineered. My current car is a Ford Flex and frankly I love it. It's not a perfe…

VWs are very unreliable. Every year they end up below avarage in reliability tests (Honda and Toyota always share the top). But I think people buy them because they look great. I owned multiple VWs but never will buy a VW again. And because my Mazda keeps on going I think I will be a Mazda owner for a long time to come.

Not my experience - we've had 5 VW group cars in the last 15 year or so (VW, Skoda, Audi) and not one of them has required anything other than regular servicing.

Now when I had a BMW that was never out of the dealers.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#163

Post by celerrimus »

This is very puzzling for me. You know, volkswagen as volkswagen, they will do anything to increase profit, but how it's possible that people buy those? Because it's not that thet they produced more cars, someone buy it. I can't understand how company having such long miserable history of cheating it's own customers (one sample, manufacturing defected TFSI engines they refuse to repair under warranty), and society as a whole (poisoned by deadly particles that shouldn't be emitted), still is commonly desired.

I was searching for new in 2015, also considering VW, but they were overpriced, especially if you don't want basic version. After some research we decided to buy Toyota. They were maybe little delayed in terms of design and equipment, even slightly old-fashioned. But on the other hand they have long history of solid reliability. Of cource they have some bummers (like some d4-d engines), but at least Toyota always tried to fix them, even after warranty.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#164

Post by d3ckard »

celerrimus wrote: post #163

This is very puzzling for me. You know, volkswagen as volkswagen, they will do anything to increase profit, but how it's possible that people buy those? Because it's not that thet they produced more cars, someone buy it. I can't understand how company having such long miserable history of cheating it's own customers (one sample, manufacturing defected TFSI engines they refuse to repair under warranty), and society as…

>> They are were maybe little delayed in terms of design and equipment, even slightly old-fashioned.

You answered yourself.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#165

Post by schiffern »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #109
gonzo41 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

Corporate personhood is a long standing legal principle stretching back at least 400 years to the first joint stock corporations. The creation of limited liability vehicles for investors to pool resources, govern large cooperatives of individuals, simplify complex transactions, and protect investments and intellectual property has led to unprecedented levels of wealth creation for nations and people, and is arguably…

>Corporate personhood is a long standing legal principle stretching back at least 400 years to the first joint stock corporations

Equating modern corporations to the limited government granted corporation (permitted only for a limited and explicitly stated purpose [like building a bridge or railroad] in the public benefit) of 400 years ago and the nearly limitless powers of a corporation leveraged out of the 14th Amendment is a bit dishonest.

"The Corporation" gave a good summary of how the 14th amendment (passed to protect the rights of the newly freed slaves) was hijacked by corporate lawyers to dismantle the traditional limitations on corporations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qNmV4Iv0GE

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#166

Post by adventured »

closeparen wrote: post #132
chrisper wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I simply cannot imagine why a huge car manufacturer could produce such a faulty car. Sadly, American Car companies create lots of faulty cars as well. Not sure why.

It might be a good idea to start hoarding Toyotas, if you are so inclined, before the tariff erases the savings on maintenance and repair.

Toyota makes an immense number of vehicles in the US, with American labor. They'll easily dodge most of the effect of any tariffs.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#167

Post by simonbarker87 »

koonsolo wrote: post #160
simonbarker87 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not read Arnold's autobiography but out of interest what are you referring to? If you are talking about his use of steroids etc (which I'm assuming is covered in the book?) then that isn't really cheating since in the case of professional bodybuilding since the sport is untested. There are federations that test and in that case using PEDs is cheating but in an untested federation, it's considered fair game. Obvi…

I'm not referring to that, because at that time it was even legal. For example what he did was looked at what parties the jury members went, and then go there and socialize with them. So they already knew him personally before going on stage. Or mess mentally with competitors, lie to them etc. Or when he was on stage with another bodybuilder for the final poses, acted as if he was about to leave the stage, the other…

It's been on my list to read for while now, I'll take a look.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#168

Post by arviewer »

NamTaf wrote: post #44

For all the criticism about their cheating of metrics and rules, I recently hired a VW Polo Diesel for a month to drive around Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and France and found it to be a comfortable, performant, nimble and all-round decent car. It handled doing 160 down the Autobahn quite comfortably without steering judder or anything I'd expected at higher speeds. It accelerated surprisingly well (not even consid…

The Polo is a great car. Here in Europe diesel is the most used fuel, and cars are fast enough if not faster than gas engines.

But have you driven behind a diesel that floored the gas pedal? Have you seen that smoke? It's a good thing that diesel is on its way out due to hybrid technology. And VW makes great gas engines as well.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#169

Post by claudius »

hvidgaard wrote: post #161
claudius wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the leadership responsible still needs to face a judge There’s your problem, assuming that there is a way for leadership in a company not be responsible. Managers being ‘responsible’ is the only argument for them being paid disproportionally more than the average worker. In turn, a manager should always be responsible for the actions of their underlings all the way to the top, regardless of personal involvement…

There is several layers of leadership. The CEO might say, we need to make a product in this price range, and meeting the new regulations. Several layers below him, are the managers, that goes into the nitty gritty details of the engine and know what the engineers are doing. Is the CEO reponsible if the manager cheated and deliberately hid facts from the upper management, just to please them and make himself look bett…

> Is the CEO reponsible if the manager cheated and deliberately hid facts from the upper management, just to please them and make himself look better?

Morally, certainly yes, that’s why they’re the CEO. Their only defence against responsibility is incapacity to fulfil their duties, in which case they should resign immediately.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#170

Post by jgalt212 »

gonzo41 wrote: post #14
ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

corporations don't commit crimes, people commit crimes. Obama was afraid to prosecute the rich and powerful, and now we have, well, you know.
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