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Make America Hate Again

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Re: Make America Hate Again

#251

Post by mikeash »

mst wrote: post #224
mikeash wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this statement several times now. Obama did the same thing, and nobody complained. It's not the same thing at all. Obama didn't block people who already have valid visas. Obama didn't block green card holders. Why do you say it's the same? Do you consider those two things to be essentially the same, or are you ignorant of the actual substance of one or both of these actions, or what?

Green card holders are being exempted, that was shitshow disorganisation rather than policy. This policy is still not the same though, no. The previous administration only suspended Iraqi refugee processing for ~6 months. The thing I'm mostly annoyed about is people claiming "only the new administration would pick this list of countries" when they inherited the list. I'd much rather we focused on how much worse thing…

It was policy. Then that policy was loosened. The loosening is rather vague and still leaves a lot of room for trouble, so it remains to be seen just what the practical effects are. Now they "will be allowed to board U.S. bound aircraft and will be assessed for exceptions at arrival ports of entry."

I totally agree that focusing on the list itself is silly. It's a good example of why Trump should have divested his business interests prior to taking office, to avoid this kind of questioning of his motives. But it certainly doesn't look like these countries were chosen in any way based on his business holdings.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#252

Post by John23832 »

hueving wrote: post #23
metafunctor wrote: post #3

I know what "hate" means. I know what bigotry is, and I know what racism means. Don't you?

>I know what "hate" means Do you though? If you can't distinguish the difference between fear of the unknown and hatred, then you are fortunate enough to never have experienced hatred. Since everyone likes to compare Trump and Hitler. Hitler hated the Jews, which resulted in genocide . I've talked to several people who support what he did with the ban and it has nothing to do with hating Muslims or immigrants and its…

> Since everyone likes to compare Trump and Hitler. Hitler hated the Jews, which resulted in genocide. I've talked to several people who support what he did with the ban and it has nothing to do with hating Muslims or immigrants and its all driven by fear (statistically irrational) of attacks like the ones in Germany.

And Hitler drove fear of the Jewish people taking over and kidnapping and killing christian children as his catalyst to power as well. There were negative traits ascribed to Jews, just as there are now of Muslims. Prior to implementing camps and genocide, Hitler stoked an environment of fear. Fear of the others.

Hell, hatred of blacks in the American Antebellum South, and the hatred that continues to this day, stemmed from white people's fear of blacks.

Fear inspires hatred. While they are not the same thing, they are related.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#253

Post by mikeash »

203812031 wrote: post #175
mikeash wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're banning these other words, can we also ban "virtue signaling"? It basically means "you are being insincere" and is just as unproductive.

"Virtue signaling" is just a modern term for an age old concept. Yesterday someone mentioned that he wanted to know the morbid people using this term (paraphrased). It turns out that Jesus was one of those morbid people, criticizing the Pharisees and hypocrisy (preaching water and drinking wine). Hypocrisy permeates business and politics, so while "virtue signaling" is perhaps overused, it is nonetheless a useful cat…

It's a fine concept. I don't object to the concept at all. I've accused Trump of doing this sort of thing a lot, just not using those words.

What I object to is the specific phrase itself. Not because it's inherently bad, but because of how it's used. People use it as a way to dismiss and insult people without appearing dismissive and insulting. It's like if I say "you're suffering from a rectal-cranial inversion" rather than "you have your head up your ass."

If people want to call me insincere and disingenuous, I'd like them to have the courage to say it straight, not hide it behind scientific terms.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#254

Post by derrickdirge »

ThomPete wrote: post #40
metafunctor wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate, because I don't understand. Usually people would like the society in general to have less bigotry, hatred, and racism. Do you think Trump will help us get there, and how?

Well first you need to establish that Trump are actually doing those things. This is the primary issues once you actually dig into things he might just as well just be nationalist which means occupied with US citizens not world citizens. From the perspective of a nationalist the extreme measures Trump have taken are simply to secure the country. From the perspective of a globalist he is destroying the very foundation…

It would be easier to see his actions as 'just nationalist' if even one of the countries whose citizens have been banned from entering the US wasn't a Muslim-majority country.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#255

Post by _xhok »

762236 wrote: post #249
_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

He donated real money, so I think it a stretch to call virtue signaling.

Yeah, that was the part I later maybe wished I could retract. I do think saying "it's time to act, people" and then actually acting is underrated.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#256

Post by Avshalom »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #207
Avshalom wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No.

That's my point. It's completely unclear. That's why it's such a great slur; there is no clear definition of it, no way to prove it false, and it inspires such negative emotions.

Because context matters there is no one line definition.

Not that you care. You will happily argue that MLK was the real racist for making white people let black people eat in their restaurants.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#257

Post by rjtavares »

sanderjd wrote: post #181
kalleboo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. This is one of those topics where the Hacker News community has no particular insight, and the comments will surely be the same political cesspool as anywhere else (prove me wrong, please!).

Here's my take: I'm torn between agreeing that these stories don't really belong on HN and thinking that the comments here are the only ones I ever see that still don't immediately devolve into ugly name-calling. I wish I knew of a decent political forum, but I only know of echo-chambers on one side or the other and un-civil cesspools. The politics conversations here aren't great , but they usually have some input fr…

There are some subreddits that attempt to do exactly that. I think the biggest is: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/

Re: Make America Hate Again

#258

Post by fridsun »

_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

All nouns are labels. Labeling in an argument goes all the ways and there is no guarantee whatsoever the parties involved have the same recognition of the labels. That we even have enough common understanding to create a language is due to a special human ability to understand each other without precise language, thus labels. The problem is not using labels, but people who intentionally mess with said ability to understand and then plant the blame on labels.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#259

Post by mjmsmith »

ashark wrote: post #247
mjmsmith wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that refugees from these seven countries represent a particularly grave threat is nonsense, so we're left to speculate on the real motives. Forty years ago, Jimmy Carter put his peanut farm into a blind trust. Trump still owns properties all over the world. Since he hasn't released his taxes, we have no idea how much money he owes and to whom. It's not at all unreasonable to assume that his decisions will…

Of course it's nonsense, and of course Trump's going to try to help (and avoid harming) his own fortune, and maybe this is even a case of that, it just happens that "discriminating against the same countries been bombing" doesn't require "discriminating against countries that contain Trump properties", so unless we get a leaked memo where he explicitly forbids doing anything to affect travel from those other countrie…

Agreed.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#260

Post by gonvaled »

jhoechtl wrote: post #163

As an European I - somehow - welcome this new sort of policy. It reads to me as "we concentrate primarily on ourselves". Which I think is a good attitude. I hope this sort of thinking becomes more widespread. Sort of an anti-globalization movement. We have and always will have globalization. In cyber-space. The open source community is an incredible example for how that works. But please concentrate globalisation to…

> Come, see, go, leave no traces. Thank you!

Utterly disgusting, to another European with a completely opposite view. People are more important than goods, services and capital. People should be able to travel and settle down wherever they choose.

The only bad effects of globalization are the ones deriving from the power that corporations and wealthy individuals have of gaming the tax system.

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