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Make America Hate Again

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Re: Make America Hate Again

#181

Post by sanderjd »

kalleboo wrote: post #81
hueving wrote: post #31

I flagged this, not because I have issues with the political stance, but because it adds absolutely nothing of substance to discuss. It's just a re-iteration that this administration is "hateful", "racist", "bigoted" and whatever else without anything compelling to convince anyone to change or even strengthen their views. I see nothing useful that can come from wasting discussions on this. I'm already regretting spen…

Same here. This is one of those topics where the Hacker News community has no particular insight, and the comments will surely be the same political cesspool as anywhere else (prove me wrong, please!).

Here's my take: I'm torn between agreeing that these stories don't really belong on HN and thinking that the comments here are the only ones I ever see that still don't immediately devolve into ugly name-calling. I wish I knew of a decent political forum, but I only know of echo-chambers on one side or the other and un-civil cesspools.

The politics conversations here aren't great, but they usually have some input from both sides and way less incivility than anywhere else I know of.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#182

Post by unscaled »

0xFFC wrote: post #57

Iranian here, I do completely respect his decision , although I am 100% against his decision. The only point I don't get is how Trump is not same Trump before election, He talked about banning Muslim (I was born in Muslim family , although I am not Muslim and I am atheist , I want to clear things out that I am not against ordinary people.), But he literally banned people from countries which have not participated in…

The government of Saudi Arabia doesn't officially sponsor any terrorist group (what royal family members do unofficially with their "own" money could be quite different :(). But that's not even the question. The question is which nationals are the most dangerous to US security, and here we're getting into pure populism. Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, the rest of them from Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Lebanon. Non of these country is on Trump's list.

The countries on the lists are either countries ravished by civil war (Syria, Libya, Yemen, and to a lesser extent Iraq and Sudan) or countries with US-hostile regimes that are already embargoed (Iran, Sudan and Assad-controlled Syria). In short, the Trump administration chose the most dangerous-sounding names for American ears, picking governments that are either on bad terms with the US as it is, or simply too weak to complain. The direct economic damage will be negligible, while the people who supported Trump's idea of a temporary ban of Muslims (most of his voters) would be satisfied with his actions.

It's an effective populist measure, but it's a particularly nasty, considering that the US is closing itself to refugees from countries in civil war.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#183

Post by derrickdirge »

_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

>Some virtue signaling is necessary; leaders should speak out;

Surely Fred Wilson is considered a leader within certain communities.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#184

Post by CaptainZapp »

_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

  I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse.
I totally disagree.

How else do you want to describe the contents (and spirit) of this executive order?

I think getting into mealy mouthed wiesel words and euphemisms for something that's clearly hateful and bigoted and racist helps no one.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#185

Post by reitanqild »

davexunit wrote: post #172
reitanqild wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we are not talking about you. We are talking about people who went around, even here on HN, telling that half the American population were dumb racist haters because they either voted Trump or IIRC just because they respected the election.

If you voted for Trump you are, at the very least, okay with electing a racist, sexist, xenophobic authoritarian. And half the American population did not vote for Trump.

I didn't. Together with most people who have been affected by Bush, Obamas and Hillarys wars (I wasn't though, lucky me) I didn't have a vote.

Trump hasn't started a war yet although I am afraid that might just be a matter of time.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#186

Post by makomk »

kalleboo wrote: post #144
Shivetya wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

however he didn't create the list of the countries that were banned.

How is that relevant? Isn't it even worse if he just took some list of countries he doesn't know the rationale behind their inclusion and banned them? In tech, this is a problem with things like random half-assed anti-spam lists that people find and adopt with no critical thinking behind.

It's relevant because it means that all the people pointing to the choice of countries as proof that Trump is a racist, doesn't really care about national security, is driven by his own commercial interests, etc are talking nonsense - and most likely partisan nonsense at that, since the list comes from the previous administration's border policy. In particular, anyone who claims that only a racist would think those countries are high-risk and uses this to point fingers at Trump rather than Obama is on dubious ground because it's Obama's administration that decided people from those countries were high-risk. Also, bear in mind that this is ostensibly a temporary thing while they come up with a more suitable permanent policy.

There are, of course, reasons why the countries on that list were there in the first place too - mainly recent terrorist attacks in Europe by people from said countries. I imagine it's not quite the list Trump's administration would draw up (there's talk of adding Pakistan, which is an obvious omission), but given how much flack and dubious accusations they received for literally copying Obama's list it was probably politically unwise for them to create their own.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#187

Post by mst »

mjmsmith wrote: post #28
hueving wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they don't believe they are being racist? Closing borders to some Muslim dominated countries while leaving them open to the largest Muslim countries in the world does give the impression that maybe it's not about being Muslim and it's more about nations.

Nations without Trump hotels.

So you're saying that the Obama administration set up their list of countries with terrorist activities based on the business interests of somebody who wasn't even running for office yet?

This seems strange to me.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#188

Post by pluma »

soneca wrote: post #6
_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

"People become sick of this, and vote Trump just to fuck with everyone." This is extremely superficial, arrogant, even offensive to people who voted for Trump. And that is the reason why Trump won IMO. Opposition couldnt understand (not even recognize) the legitimate and valid thoughtful reasons people had to vote for Trump.

I'm still struggling to understand where this obsession with explaining how Trump got people to vote for him comes from. The real killing blow was the low turnout for the Democrat candidate. Trump only had to beat Clinton and practically nobody (outside the most progressive parts of the US) voted for Clinton.

Trump may have swayed some undecided voters in his favours as a protest vote but all he had to do was rally the Republican voters and make Clinton look so bad the Democrat voters wouldn't want to get her elected.

The question isn't why Trump won, the question is why Clinton lost. In terms of absolute numbers, Clinton couldn't even match the numbers with which Obama was re-elected. She won the popular vote but the popular vote is not where you win the presidency and she knew that.

The voters who should have been Democrat voters didn't have faith in their candidate and I think they didn't even have faith in their party. Trump's election is not simply a weird victory of a Republican outsider, it's a massive defeat of the Democrat establishment.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#189

Post by burkaman »

kalleboo wrote: post #95
puranjay wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon my ignorance - I'm not American and haven't followed this news - but how is everyone conflating it with "muslims"? I mean, my country has some 140M muslims (India), and my neighbors have some 330M muslims. As a layman, I just read the order and I thought "oh, so it's all war torn countries...but what's Iran doing in there?" not "oh, it's all muslim countries"

Because Trump went to election on "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" [0, donaldjtrump.com] The fact that it was implemented as a ban on citizens from the most prominent Muslim-majority countries (as seen by the eyes of the average American voter, who forgot about Saudi Arabia) could be interpreted as a way for Trump to say he kept his pledge while not being instantly impeached for n…

FYI, you don't need to use an archive, that's still up on his website: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-...

Re: Make America Hate Again

#190

Post by Avshalom »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #180
Avshalom wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes when you cut some one open and take out body parts it's called murder. Sometimes when you cut some one open and take out body parts it's called surgery. CONTEXT MATTERS

Murder is the unlawful and premeditated killing of one person by another. Surgery is the treatment of injuries or disorders of the body by incision or manipulation, especially with instruments. Racism is ___? Please fill in the blanks so I can apply your definition to an action/belief together with it's associated context.

No.
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