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Make America Hate Again

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Re: Make America Hate Again

#61

Post by puranjay »

strken wrote: post #14

Make sure to check out the comment down the bottom where Fred Wilson says he'll talk to Disqus about killing Breitbart's account, as well as the related discussion. As a non-American with less to lose, while I think the latest move by Trump is contemptible and stupid, a lot of the response to it seem counter-productive. People here (edit: on HN) and elsewhere are doubling down on hatred, both of Trump supporters and…

Pardon my ignorance - I'm not American and haven't followed this news - but how is everyone conflating it with "muslims"?

I mean, my country has some 140M muslims (India), and my neighbors have some 330M muslims.

As a layman, I just read the order and I thought "oh, so it's all war torn countries...but what's Iran doing in there?" not "oh, it's all muslim countries"

Re: Make America Hate Again

#62

Post by anon1385 »

hueving wrote: post #33
metafunctor wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Labelling all people from entire countries as not eligible to enter your country is, by definition, racist. I don't see how that is not clear. I thought it was clear. I thought people defending these executive orders think it's all fine and good to basically blacklist entire countries and every person on earth who is a citizen of those countries.

>I don't see how that is not clear Because you're not even using the right word? Discriminating by country is not racist, it's xenophobic. Otherwise everyone who says American tourists are annoying or has a stereotype about Americans is racist by your definition.

Trump’s chief spokesman Sean Spicer just explicitly stated that it's not about countries[1]:

>certain areas of the world produce people who seek to do us harm.

What's your definition of race? It's a hard thing to define since it doesn't objectively exist, but I think 'people from certain areas of the world' is pretty indistinguishable from what most people mean by race.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2017/jan/29/donald-...

Re: Make America Hate Again

#63

Post by tqwcs »

soneca wrote: post #6
_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

"People become sick of this, and vote Trump just to fuck with everyone." This is extremely superficial, arrogant, even offensive to people who voted for Trump. And that is the reason why Trump won IMO. Opposition couldnt understand (not even recognize) the legitimate and valid thoughtful reasons people had to vote for Trump.

I know plenty of people who actually did vote for Trump because they hated Hillary. Only reason given.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#64

Post by ChefDenominator »

Corristowolf wrote: post #56

Obama was the one who implemented the visa ban for 7 islamic countries. Trump is just continuing the policy and added a LGBTQ clause. The left is blowing this out of proportion, just because it's Trump. They had no problem with airstrikes everyday that Obama was in office. I wish the press could be more objective. Every country has a right to deny access to people from other countries. Same with all the islamic middl…

Exactly. The left is going to end up being extinct, and it has no clue why.

Obama oversees war for every day of his two terms, and we hear nothing, because, I guess, bombing people isn't hateful.

Trump takes office, continues the policies of Obama, and he's hateful. It's the left that is prejudice in assuming that those in the middle and the right can't see through this.

I see zero effort to change strategy or tactic, so we can all look forward to a second term of Trump.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#65

Post by Clubber »

0xFFC wrote: post #57

Iranian here, I do completely respect his decision , although I am 100% against his decision. The only point I don't get is how Trump is not same Trump before election, He talked about banning Muslim (I was born in Muslim family , although I am not Muslim and I am atheist , I want to clear things out that I am not against ordinary people.), But he literally banned people from countries which have not participated in…

>But guess what? Iran was, but Suadi Arabia wasn't.

There are the stated reasons why the US government thinks a certain way and there are the real reasons. Saudi Arabia is a big one. I suspect the real reasons is we have oil deals with Saudi Arabia and Iran has oil deals with Russia. Also Iran nationalized US interests in the late 70s with the revolution. The US punished Cuba for the same thing for 50 years (plus the missile crisis). The US isn't altruistic like they want people to believe, the US works aggressively for their own best interests. If they can paint an altruistic face on it, they will.

The US is still can't let go of the cold war mentality, probably justified with Putin. Iran and Saudi Arabia fit into that mentality. Iran and Saudi Arabia are the two powers in the middle east: one is traditionally an ally, one is our adversary's ally.

It's a natural law of geopolitic that the victors of a major conflict split into at least minor adversaries. The victors are the only ones who can threaten each others power and security. We saw this play out after WWII.

Dan Carlin just released an episode where he explores this. I haven't gotten through it yet, but it's very good.

http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-59-the-destroyer-o...

Re: Make America Hate Again

#66

Post by selllikesybok »

_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

Labels are extemely useful and important. You do not cede ground on framing. Even if all you can do is fight to a standstill, it is better than not fighting.

Call it what it is. Everywhere you see it.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#67

Post by belorn »

josefresco wrote: post #43
soneca wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People become sick of this, and vote Trump just to fuck with everyone." This is extremely superficial, arrogant, even offensive to people who voted for Trump. And that is the reason why Trump won IMO. Opposition couldnt understand (not even recognize) the legitimate and valid thoughtful reasons people had to vote for Trump.

Anecdotally, the people I know personally who voted for Trump did so because they "didn't like Hillary" which I translate as "just to fuck with everyone". They knew who they were "supposed" to vote for, and rejected that. They didn't once repeat any of Trumps proposed policies or justify their choice based on public positions. They were given a choice between two flavors of politicians, and picked the one they liked…

Recall seeing statics (polls) that showed about the same amount of Hillary and Trump voters decided on policy issues. The most popular reason to vote in both camps was to make sure than the other candidate did not win.

Its was very symmetric.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#68

Post by 0xFFC »

Clubber wrote: post #65
0xFFC wrote: post #57

Iranian here, I do completely respect his decision , although I am 100% against his decision. The only point I don't get is how Trump is not same Trump before election, He talked about banning Muslim (I was born in Muslim family , although I am not Muslim and I am atheist , I want to clear things out that I am not against ordinary people.), But he literally banned people from countries which have not participated in…

>But guess what? Iran was, but Suadi Arabia wasn't. There are the stated reasons why the US government thinks a certain way and there are the real reasons. Saudi Arabia is a big one. I suspect the real reasons is we have oil deals with Saudi Arabia and Iran has oil deals with Russia. Also Iran nationalized US interests in the late 70s with the revolution. The US punished Cuba for the same thing for 50 years (plus the…

I do agree with you. But my biggest conclusion is Trump is super smart.

Trump is super smart to play an outsider role because he knows how desperately people looking for an outsider, but at the other hand DNC and Obama were stupid enough to not get it. He is an insider as much as Clinton. But he is way smarter than DNC, Clinton, Obama.

God, I missed Bernie.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#69

Post by tangaroa11 »

jasonlingx wrote: post #37

Trump campaigned on this. America voted for this. Every nation gets the government it deserves.

The U.S. is clearly geographically stratified (and self stratifying), and the impact factor of certain regions is clearly larger than others with the electoral system.

I would take issue with the statement that "America" voted for Trump or his talking points. Priorities vary greatly; just look at local politics. For two extremes, California ballot measures (2016) have included things like legalizing marijuana and promoting bilingual school education; Kansas has ballot measures for things like right to hunt and fish (2016) or exemption from nationally mandated health care plans (2014).

Re: Make America Hate Again

#70

Post by refurb »

0xFFC wrote: post #57

Iranian here, I do completely respect his decision , although I am 100% against his decision. The only point I don't get is how Trump is not same Trump before election, He talked about banning Muslim (I was born in Muslim family , although I am not Muslim and I am atheist , I want to clear things out that I am not against ordinary people.), But he literally banned people from countries which have not participated in…

But he literally banned people from countries which does not participated in any terroristic act (Iran for example) whatsoever.

There is a whole Wikipedia page for you to browse.[1]

Has Iran directly committed a terrorist act again the United States? No, unless you stretch that definition a bunch.

Has it supported/funded terrorism against other Western countries? Absolutely.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terro...

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