Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 507 posts

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#301

Post by phjesusthatguy3 »

jimbokun wrote: post #281
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. There are pieces of the system that don't have equality of opportunity. People aren't born with the same amount of money or into the same social circles. There are actual racists in the world doing actually racist things. Different role models. Different cultures. Everyone already knows this. You have to fix the c…

I was a white kid, and I wanted to be a basketball player much more than a programmer. I just wasn't any good at it.

That doesn't seem fair. Which NBA teams did you try out for?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#302

Post by adventured »

asher_ wrote: post #296

As someone unfamiliar with US law, could someone explain whether it's illegal for companies like Oracle to pay white, male workers more (as stated in the article) or if it's only illegal to pay them more because they are male and white? The former seems obviously absurd. So, assuming it's the latter, has the government supplied any evidence that this has happened?

The only correct answer to all of this is: it's almost entirely arbitrary. Which is by design. The ideal is to be able to punish anyone at any time for any reason to enforce whatever agenda happens to be popular at the present whim (the popularity of whatever is the cultural moment's definition of equality will shift non-stop year to year, decade to decade; so you need strictly arbitrary standards, so you can always be able to swing a hammer down upon someone / some company that is out of step with the shifting definitions, otherwise the entire thing becomes rigid and collapses).

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#303

Post by bdhe »

briandear wrote: post #125
mavelikara wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The time when an immigrant gets their H1-B the first time is based on a lottery. Subsequent job changes while on H-1B is not via any lottery.

As a point of fact, an H-1B is a non-immigrant visa.

> Even though the H-1B visa is a non-immigrant visa, it is one of the few temporary visa categories recognized as dual intent, meaning an H-1B holder can have legal immigration intent (apply for and obtain the green card) while still a holder of the H-1B visa. Effectively, the requirement to maintain a foreign address for this non-immigrant classification was removed in the Immigration Act of 1990.[22]

Citations from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#304

Post by pm90 »

mulmen wrote: post #212
dmix wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in software for ~10yrs now and can only count the number of engineers I've met who weren't white or Asian (Indians included) on one hand. And that doesn't say anything about anyone's particular ability to be engineers. It's just less likely to happen via the available applicants. Although I have noticed a spike in women, that doesn't seem to be the issue here. It seems to me the Dept of Labor is trying to s…

State intervention depends on the cause(s). Direct intervention against the employer like this would make sense if there was deliberate discrimination in violation of the law. I agree the state should be acting at a much higher level to solve these problems. This could take the form of education incentives to get a more diverse workforce or do something about income inequality that prevents some demographics from pur…

I agree with this comment. I don't think the DOL would act unless it had information that goes beyond just over representation of certain races in the company's labor force.

Anecdotally, a friend who was interviewing with Oracle was given a lowball offer by a Oracle recruiter of the same ethnicity and told that it was "a very good offer for a person like you". At the time I believed it was just a rogue interviewer, but it sounds like this may have been more widespread.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#305

Post by coredog64 »

sqlplus wrote: post #292
aswanson wrote: post #181

Who in their right mind would want to work for oracle in 2017? That's like fighting for a gig at DEC circa 1997. They're doing candidates a favor by refusing them entrance on the Titanic.

I am a fierce critic of Oracle ( see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13432376 ). But I know many people who in their right mind would want to work for Oracle. * People who love RDBMS technology. Oracle's Database division is big and has a lot of veteran and very skilled software developers and architects who work with the Database kernel code. New employees can also work on this code. I am sure a lot of people w…

If I wanted to work on Oracle Linux I'd do it from Raleigh, NC.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#306

Post by dlss »

inimino wrote: post #289
nickpeterson wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at some level, doesn't that just mean reality is biased, and since we don't live in utopia, trying to model one in the small is a sandcastle?

What do you mean by "reality"? Society is pervasively biased, yes, that's the point. That makes it difficult to fight against that bias, but it is necessary if you want to live in a more equal world.

> What do you mean by "reality"?

The thing scientists (especially physicists) are trying to model.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#307

Post by hnbro »

jimbokun wrote: post #281
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. There are pieces of the system that don't have equality of opportunity. People aren't born with the same amount of money or into the same social circles. There are actual racists in the world doing actually racist things. Different role models. Different cultures. Everyone already knows this. You have to fix the c…

I was a white kid, and I wanted to be a basketball player much more than a programmer. I just wasn't any good at it.

not everyone can be dirk nowitzki :(

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#308

Post by sadly_impolite »

Frondo wrote: post #199
wallace_f wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…

>I won't even get into those experiments people've done with sending out identical resumes, some with "white"-sounding name, some with "black"-sounding names...

There is no polite way to put it, but I would be surprised if among black applicants having a "black" name did not predict worse actual performance than having a "white" name. The same goes for white applicants with "white trash" names. If there are Asian equivalents, same for them.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#309

Post by sqlplus »

coredog64 wrote: post #305
sqlplus wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a fierce critic of Oracle ( see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13432376 ). But I know many people who in their right mind would want to work for Oracle. * People who love RDBMS technology. Oracle's Database division is big and has a lot of veteran and very skilled software developers and architects who work with the Database kernel code. New employees can also work on this code. I am sure a lot of people w…

If I wanted to work on Oracle Linux I'd do it from Raleigh, NC.

Sure! There are employees who indeed work for Oracle remotely and get paid. The point is not that one may want to work on Oracle Linux. The point is that one can work on a variety of things in Oracle (including other Linux distributions, not just Oracle Linux) and system programming, and get paid to do this. Therefore despite the several chronic problems that exist in Oracle, it is not as absurd to be working for Oracle in 2017 as aswanson was claiming it to be.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#310

Post by pm90 »

illumin8 wrote: post #157
hibikir wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prevailing wage comes from a chart: you don't just do research or come up with it. Figuring out which prevailing wage to use among the existing job descriptions is already a matter of judgement, and you can just aim for the low one. Publishing the position locally is easily skirted: It's not published in places that people look at, it's not written in a way that makes it sound appealing, and often has some nonsen…

Thank you for your insightful comment - I wish people like you would testify in front of congress on the abuses of the H1B process that are clearly widespread. It's depressing to think about the stress and anxiety this might cause someone who is literally facing deportation if he doesn't "suck it up" and keep working at a sweat shop for the same salary they were hired at 5+ years ago.

Well, unless they are flagrantly violating labor rules/constitutional rights of the person by monitoring them at all times, there's really nothing (except the green card process I guess) that stops a worker on H1B from scouting for other opportunities that would pay better. Not all H1B's work for sweatshops, but I understand the system has been abused a lot.
Post reply on HN