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U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#281

Post by jimbokun »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #276
Frondo wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…

> If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. There are pieces of the system that don't have equality of opportunity. People aren't born with the same amount of money or into the same social circles. There are actual racists in the world doing actually racist things. Different role models. Different cultures. Everyone already knows this. You have to fix the c…

I was a white kid, and I wanted to be a basketball player much more than a programmer. I just wasn't any good at it.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#282

Post by azernik »

duderific wrote: post #149
exabrial wrote: post #90

The real solution to the problem is everyone needs to share their income level with their co-workers as well as their performance reports. And don't be afraid to leave!

Huh? This could lead to a lot of hurt feelings and resentment, if you find out your co-worker at the same level is making $15K/year more than you. Awkward...

And those feelings of resentment might deepen when you're a woman, and you realize that the co-workers making those extra $15K/year are all men...

This doesn't seem like such a bad outcome.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#283

Post by zxcvb »

jdavis703 wrote: post #268
ninkendo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. That is a drastic oversimplification. The employee pool can only hope to be reflective of the pool of those who seek employment at that company and are qualified. Which can only hope to be reflective of the employee marketplace for that industry at large. Whi…

Since graduating college I've stayed continuously employeed at several different Bay Area tech startups, so I'm pretty sure I have at least decent technology skills. Yet I've been to several interviews where questions about race/ethnicity were brought up (and I failed to get offers from those companies that ask such questions). I can only imagine what it's like being a woman going for these positions. My point, a lot…

What questions? I'm sure this is illegal.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#284

Post by azernik »

temp246810 wrote: post #86

Question: as an employer what exactly am I supposed to do if when I put a req out for an engineer, >>>>50% of applicants are asian? Is the burden really on me to dig through the remaining applicants for good ones? These laws really sound like people with no skin in the game demanding things for which they don't know all ramifications.

The DoL specifically looked at the proportion of hires compared to the proportion of applicants, not the raw proportion of hires.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#286

Post by pps43 »

sokoloff wrote: post #272
pps43 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Any telltale signs? I'm assuming it's not the difference between native English speaker and ESL, but specific words or grammar patterns? Can you tell from my comment history whether I was educated in the US?

I spent The "tell" that I'm primarily relying upon is that you often drop articles where a US-native speaker would use them. Just one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13197570 (that was as far back as I went) I think most native US speakers would use "the gun industry" and "the film industry". Several later comments drop an "an" or "a" article as well. You also have a habit of using a comma splice rather…

Correct on both counts, although it's not quite clear how much of the difference is from place of education rather than native language. Math is the same no matter where you study it, at least in theory. Probably need a bigger sample.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#287

Post by azernik »

phkahler wrote: post #147

How does the US government have standing in such a case? If such practices are not legal, shouldn't the law specify a remedy? If not, how has the government been harmed?

Because, as TFA states, Oracle is a government contractor, and government contracts require all kinds of things. For example, in many jurisdictions it's legal to discriminate against gay people... until you sign a federal contract, which according to Executive Order 11246 [1] includes a provision prohibiting such discrimination.

[1] https://www.dol.gov/ofccp/lgbt.html

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#289

Post by inimino »

nickpeterson wrote: post #233
torinmr wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A particularly hairy case is where you use variables as features which are themselves generated through other potentially-discriminatory processes. For example, including a "has committed a felony" feature seems like a no-brainer for a hiring or lending application, but now any racial or other discrimination present in the criminal justice system has now "infected" your hiring process, so that the outcomes of your hi…

But at some level, doesn't that just mean reality is biased, and since we don't live in utopia, trying to model one in the small is a sandcastle?

What do you mean by "reality"? Society is pervasively biased, yes, that's the point. That makes it difficult to fight against that bias, but it is necessary if you want to live in a more equal world.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#290

Post by Spooky23 »

SamUK96 wrote: post #148
Spooky23 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that unbelievable? They are one of the most outwardly testosterone-y companies anywhere. That kind of bullshit is catnip for fratbro types, who trend white.

Okay, but do you have any evidence or experience that Oracle is "testerone-y", nevermind "outwardly" so? To generalise an entire company, a kind of global one at that, as that, just comes of as incredibly bitter and nieve.

Do you do business with them in any capacity?

They pay a lot of money to build that persona. Unreadable this, unbeatable that, sailboats, fighter jets, etc. I was in a meeting when some SVP dude called on us. His big story was how when they bought Sun they hit their target for shutting down EMEA Sun operations, but in doing so fucked their customers and they couldn't ship product for 3-4 months. It was pitched as a "good" story.

I have no idea what the culture is like inside. I'm exclusively commenting on how they portray themselves to people sending them bags of money.

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