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U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#271

Post by moduspol »

zo1 wrote: post #182
wallace_f wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

> "I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of outcome will lead us to the world of Harrison Bergeron's." People have been trying to hammer that distinction for a long time. For certain people, it just doesn't "stick". They believe there is a boogey man, and by golly they will make sure to get the state to punish any scenario that hints to its existence. If anything, I'd argue t…

> If anything, I'd argue that they are creating a boogey man.

The concept itself perpetuates the boogey man.

We see these lawsuits and each one subconsciously implies, "Yep, racism is still a big problem in the industry. Here's another big company being sued for it. It's a good thing we have the Dept of Labor watching out for stuff like this. Who knows what these companies would be getting away with without it."

But it's the lawsuit itself that makes you think that, regardless of how much actual racism in the industry plays into it. It's self-perpetuating.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#272

Post by sokoloff »

pps43 wrote: post #231
coredog64 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it pretty easy to distinguish between people educated in the US and those not educated in the US after a fairly small sample of writing.

Interesting. Any telltale signs? I'm assuming it's not the difference between native English speaker and ESL, but specific words or grammar patterns? Can you tell from my comment history whether I was educated in the US?

I spent The "tell" that I'm primarily relying upon is that you often drop articles where a US-native speaker would use them. Just one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13197570 (that was as far back as I went) I think most native US speakers would use "the gun industry" and "the film industry". Several later comments drop an "an" or "a" article as well.

You also have a habit of using a comma splice rather than a semi-colon to join sentences, but that one is harder to place geographically, as it's a somewhat common trait within the US as well. In my experience, it is often a trait of European native speakers who learned English as a second language, but is less reliable than dropped articles.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#273

Post by azernik »

jiggliemon wrote: post #112

I feel that I can provide a small yet worthy piece of context. We have a difficult time interviewing ANYBODY for our open reqs. And like every other technology company I've ever worked at; a majority of resume's I've reviewed had Indian names. This seems especially weighted given how the Oracle brand and database are still desirable properties and tech in India. Your average white dude in Silicon Valley may have a fa…

In the full complaint [1] the DoL mentions this.

"Moreover, comparisons between available applicants from national labor data and Oracle's hires show gross and statistically significant disparities in the hiring of Asians versus non-Asians into PT1 and Product Development positions at Oracle Redwood Shores. These comparisons are particularly relevant because Oracle's applicant pool was heavily over-represented by Asian applicants as the result of Oracle's recruiting and hiring practices (including its over-selection of Asian applicants, particularly Asian Indians, from its actual applicant pool, its hiring strategies such as targeted recruitment, and referral bonuses that encouraged its heavily Asian workforce to recruit other Asians, and its reputation for favoring Asians).

[1] https://www.dol.gov/sites/default/files/newsroom/newsrelease...

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#274

Post by azernik »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #99
Infinitesimus wrote: post #7

> The department also said that during its investigation, which began in 2014, Oracle refused to provide relevant information about its pay practices. That's the part that doesn't help Oracle at all in this. If you really don't have anything to hide/cleanup, why avoid providing useful information for 2+ years? (Granted, 'relevant information' might be loosely defined here) Tangent: I know several employers use the co…

Demanding a release of payroll data is simply a pressure tactic. Disclosing pay practice information is something the company really doesn't want to do, it only marginally helps the plaintiff but the plaintiff can make the case that they need that information for their case. It puts pressure on the company to settle before a judge orders them to hand over the data.

According to the full complaint [1], release of payroll data was a contractual obligation for Oracle due to its government contracts.

[1] https://www.dol.gov/sites/default/files/newsroom/newsrelease...

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#275

Post by azernik »

FT_intern wrote: post #22
Infinitesimus wrote: post #7

> The department also said that during its investigation, which began in 2014, Oracle refused to provide relevant information about its pay practices. That's the part that doesn't help Oracle at all in this. If you really don't have anything to hide/cleanup, why avoid providing useful information for 2+ years? (Granted, 'relevant information' might be loosely defined here) Tangent: I know several employers use the co…

Companies don't have anything to gain (and much to lose) from disclosing their pay practices and information.

They have much more lose by violating their obligations under the contracts they signed for government work. See page 5 of the complaint: https://www.dol.gov/sites/default/files/newsroom/newsrelease...

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#276

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Frondo wrote: post #199
wallace_f wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…

> If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do.

There are pieces of the system that don't have equality of opportunity. People aren't born with the same amount of money or into the same social circles. There are actual racists in the world doing actually racist things. Different role models. Different cultures. Everyone already knows this.

You have to fix the causes, not the outcome. Mitigate poverty with a universal basic income. Punish overt racism. Change the culture so that black children want to be coders instead of basketball players.

You can't fix it at the end. Not only does it not work, because every qualified woman or minority that Oracle hires is just one less working for Apple or Microsoft and vice versa, it also isn't justice.

Because the ones who would get the coding jobs aren't the disadvantaged ones. The consequence of inequality manifests as working on the janitorial staff. You can't help those people by making a coder out of some already college-educated person who would otherwise have been a physicist or nurse or tax auditor. And not all of the people who are stuck cleaning toilets because society has been unfair to them are women or minorities.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#277

Post by mordant »

freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

>While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes.

That's no accident.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#278

Post by ioda »

I am Indian. (I used to work for Oracle). If I were to hire, given everything else is equal , I would prefer an Indian to a non-Indian. You can attribute it to cultural bias, or whatever.

But hardly 'everything else' is equal. I hire people who can get 'shi* done' , and who are easy to be managed. Period. And I assume most of the managers would do so. So if Indians are easy to be managed, and are getting hired, it is not racism. Because, they were getting hired for the easiness of managing them, and not for the Nationality.

The issue of white males getting paid more is certainly racist. But the sad part is one cannot verify it, because one cannot isolate the 'merit' part of the salary , from the part attributed to the 'race'

(By the way, I never hired anyone while working at Oracle.)

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#279

Post by azernik »

j4kp07 wrote: post #214
toomuchtodo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are not people my friend. They do not (and should not) have the same rights. EDIT: Going through my wife's underwear drawer is not the same as having to provide payroll data to enforce labor law. EDIT 2: If you're a government contractor, you have certain labor rights obligations, by law . If you violate those, the US government has the authority to pursue you. "The department in a complaint filed with a…

> Corporations are not people my friend. It doesn't matter. That wasn't the argument stated; What was proposed was "Why does it matter if you have nothing to hide." > They do not (and should not) have the same rights. Corporations are protected from illegal search and seizures just like people. > Does anyone read the article anymore? I wasn't responding to the article. I was responding to the previous poster.

I am repeating this comment all over the place but - in those same government contracts, they also agreed to share this data with the government. See page 5 of the complaint: https://www.dol.gov/sites/default/files/newsroom/newsrelease...

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#280

Post by azernik »

j4kp07 wrote: post #216
Infinitesimus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, you know this isn't an argument about privacy. This is a public company and federal contractor. That status has some expectation and if the article is to be believed, those expectations include "don't racially discriminate". This isn't DoJ harassing some poor startup. This is "hey, it seems you're discriminating against these people based on things you shouldn't legally discriminate on. Can you provide us wi…

"hey, it seems you're discriminating against these people based on things you shouldn't legally discriminate on. Can you provide us with data to show otherwise?" Hey, we're going to assume you are guilty. Can you prove otherwise?

"Hey, you signed a contract saying you will provide us with these papers on request. Are you gonna do so or not?"
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