Why can the US sue a private company for this reason? I thought private companies were exempt from these laws
You thought wrong.
U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
241–250 of 507 posts
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not saying that I agree with quotas as a solution to problems like discriminatory biases in hiring, but how is a quota system "discriminatory"? What race, sex or age group is discriminated against by a requirement that appropriate proportions of those demographics make up the companies employees? (Heck in most cases quotas are simply a low bar, they are not even proportional to the population demographics.) I can und…
I can think of many situation outside of employee distributions where quota would be discriminatory and wrong, so maybe a better question is what make hiring process so unique? To give a few examples where quota would not work, lets talk about lotto winner. Why should winners not be on a quota so that winners are proportional to the population demographics? How is it fair that winner demographics don't match the popu…
Your examples are interesting:
Lottos: are known to give each ticket a fair chance based on a published set of rules. I think if that existed for hiring then many of the issues we see here would be gone. Unfortunately for many jobs it is difficult to give a test which is a fair sole determiner of suitability for work. And if I understand correctly also illegal in some jurisdictions, more or less because it can be abused.
Roads: maintenance does in fact vary by the wealth of the supporting area. Try driving from Nebraska to Kansas on US77 for a stark example. In addition, roads are networks and thus it makes sense to subsidize maintenance of connections to increase overall network value.
Police: some people do indeed advocate a form of this because they say police already relatively over-investigate crimes of minorities. That is, a white person has a higher chance to get away with any one given crime (for some categories)
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…
> Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. That is a drastic oversimplification. The employee pool can only hope to be reflective of the pool of those who seek employment at that company and are qualified. Which can only hope to be reflective of the employee marketplace for that industry at large. Whi…
You're right, the problem is bigger than a company. It goes deep, society-deep. And I don't think anyone would say "poor black kids have a fair shake, right up until Oracle doesn't hire them". Of course not. Some groups get shafted from birth, by being born into poor communities, by being born into communities where the police split their heads for looking the way they do.
You're right, it's not just on some tech company to fix societal racism.
What I don't get is why people are always so goddamn defensive of companies and their hiring practices. "The problem lies elsewhere, don't blame the company!!"
I mean, jesus, the status quo does not need any defense. It's already winning by default.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
And also not believable. The idea Oracle had a system that paid white guys more because they were white guys isn't credible without more than just salary evidence.
You act like the DOJ is just shooting from the hip here. Yes, it's believable, because the DOJ said under penalty of perjury in a federal court that it's happening. Hand-wavey "not believable" replies are ridiculous.
If that were actually true we could dispense with the jury system.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because ownership rights are not absolute. The IRS can dig through your personal and corporate finances to ensure you're compliant with your required tax liability payments, why would you think the Department of Labor wouldn't be permitted the same? EDIT: > I don't care to discuss what the law is sorry. Why would we discuss theory and not the actual law? The law is all that matters, as that's what will be enforced .
> The IRS can dig through your personal and corporate finances Keyword: Finances And from what I understand, Oracle has turned all of those over. But you and others, are demanding unfettered access to every nook, cranny and file cabinet they possess. You sound like a disgruntled socialist that simply hates bigger and better people/companies succeeding in life. > Why would we discuss theory and not the actual law? Sai…
You don't want to follow federal government contractor regulations, don't take federal dollars. Otherwise, produce the docs you're required to.
> You sound like a disgruntled socialist that simply hates bigger and better people/companies succeeding in life.
I hate entitled companies who don't think they have to follow the rules. They deserve the boot on their neck.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#246That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…
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Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…
> "I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of outcome will lead us to the world of Harrison Bergeron's." People have been trying to hammer that distinction for a long time. For certain people, it just doesn't "stick". They believe there is a boogey man, and by golly they will make sure to get the state to punish any scenario that hints to its existence. If anything, I'd argue t…
The idea you describe in your second paragraph is to some extent rational, too. For example, a degree from a top college means less for a black job applicant because of the heavy affirmative action advantage given to them.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. That is a drastic oversimplification. The employee pool can only hope to be reflective of the pool of those who seek employment at that company and are qualified. Which can only hope to be reflective of the employee marketplace for that industry at large. Whi…
You're right, the problem is bigger than a company. It goes deep, society-deep. And I don't think anyone would say "poor black kids have a fair shake, right up until Oracle doesn't hire them". Of course not. Some groups get shafted from birth, by being born into poor communities, by being born into communities where the police split their heads for looking the way they do. You're right, it's not just on some tech com…
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Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…
You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…
> But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're pretty far from equality of opportunity.
From the stories that made it to the front of HN (and the stories that made it into the main-steam media) - almost without exception - each case (after it had its full run) turned out to be a false narrative driven by the need of someone to prove that sexism and racism is everywhere and is everything (and to profit from it in some way).
There is an entire industry dedicated to this behavior.
In my personal experience, if anything has been shown, it is that females, and non-white males, are given an enormous amount of help at the expense of other people - simply for having the proper genitalia and skin color.
If you are qualified, a female or a non-white male, you have the upper hand in gainful employment right now. This is the reality.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why merit based evaluation is the only sane hiring practice. I'd love to see legal protection for companies that can provide evidence they strictly adhered to the merit based hires. You can also apply this rationale to your own projects, by including the Code of Merit into your projects[0][1]. [0] https://github.com/rosarior/Code-of-Merit/blob/master/CODE_O... [1] http://code-of-merit.org/
Meritocracy is great. Just when everyone has equal access to education.
I'd argue that it's not the jobs of universities or employers to try to "fudge the difference" between actual outcomes and what they believe outcomes should be. By that I mean, just because not everybody has equal access to education doesn't mean employers and universities should be lowering their hiring standards (like it or not, this is what affirmative action necessitates) for people belonging to groups that on average come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Not only is it bad for business or the academic reputation of the university, it can also do more harm than good by placing people from disadvantaged groups in environments they are not prepared for, harming their growth and unnecessarily exposing them to discouraging failure.
So by that I mean, why can't we just evaluate individuals based on their own merits? If you want to stop inequality, fight to stop inequality of opportunity. Stopping inequality of outcomes makes little sense.