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U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#141

Post by cmdrfred »

lucisferre wrote: post #133
freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

Not saying that I agree with quotas as a solution to problems like discriminatory biases in hiring, but how is a quota system "discriminatory"? What race, sex or age group is discriminated against by a requirement that appropriate proportions of those demographics make up the companies employees? (Heck in most cases quotas are simply a low bar, they are not even proportional to the population demographics.) I can und…

"We can't hire any more black people, we have too many as is, if your white friend was to apply we would hire him in a heartbeat we have trouble getting enough of those"

Seems pretty discriminatory to me.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#142

Post by namelezz »

freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

> Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians

You mean Indians not East Asians, right? From the OP:

> Oracle was far more likely to hire Asian applicants - particularly Indian people

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#143

Post by kakarot »

lucisferre wrote: post #133
freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

Not saying that I agree with quotas as a solution to problems like discriminatory biases in hiring, but how is a quota system "discriminatory"? What race, sex or age group is discriminated against by a requirement that appropriate proportions of those demographics make up the companies employees? (Heck in most cases quotas are simply a low bar, they are not even proportional to the population demographics.) I can und…

I think this is similar to the "equality" vs "equity" argument. Making sure a company is forced to hire a percentage of every single demographic is not fair even though it seems fair, and it also is discriminatory in the sense that instead of making it to where race / gender / etc don't factor into whether you get the job, it completely factors in.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#144

Post by titomc »

pslam wrote: post #71
titomc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Most of the time it is just easier to hire Asian/Indian employees because they are readily available " - I doubt that. It's "easier" to hire because they "agree" to lower wages and its easier to retain them, because their visa status is tied to the employer. The employers have H1B workers on a leash. The process of hiring an H1B worker in short. - Hire an immigration lawyer. - Post an LCA. - Apply petition to USCIS…

You're missing the part where the employer is required to: - Post representative salary data, including the last few (5?) hires to this position. - Publish the job position locally, so it can be filled by local workers preferentially, and then only by H1B if unfilled. - Ensure the worker is initially paid a salary similar to other existing hires in that position. I don't understand how people make the leap that H1B i…

The companies have these "schemes" in place. If you look at an LCA posting, these scheming companies will post a salary range, eg : 75k-110k. 75k being the prevailing wages from the DOL for that area. This range means the company can pay the employee 75k and its legal. What does it take for the company to pay 110k to the employee as per LCA ? "Depends on relevant skills & relevant experience of the candidate" so that's the blurry line companies use to suppress the salary and its perfectly legal.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#145

Post by grepthisab »

mschuster91 wrote: post #137
hueving wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you kindly do the willingly and explain how? :)

It's pretty easy, but also pretty rough - if you're good, you can certainly distinguish between an American, a British or an Indian English-speaking person writing.

I could be missing the mark here, but I'm pretty sure you were replying to satire. Based on the grammar used and smiley face.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#146

Post by explainthisth »

sbov wrote: post #11
nanistheonlyist wrote: post #8

The assumption underlying these "disparate impact" cases is that all races or genders have exactly the same distribution of skills. The problem is every time this assumption is tested it turns out to be false. https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

Did you even read the first sentence? > The U.S. Labor Department has sued Oracle America Inc, alleging that the technology company systematically paid its white, male employees more than other workers and unlawfully favored Asian applicants in its recruiting and hiring efforts. If you want to explain Asians being smarter as to why they are hired more I wouldn't expect them to ALSO pay white people more. Oracle is na…

This could be easily explained in a lot of ways. Here's an example that makes sense intuitively to me: popular conception of Oracle among Bay Area locals I know is that they are money-grubbing assholes (similar reputation to an investment bank or something). They may attract a set of applicants that will negotiate aggressively and only accept high salaries. I'm white and I can sure as hell say I wouldn't work at Oracle for market rate. This effect may be correlated with race due to the way ideas travel through social groups, and immigration status.

I think this is at least as plausible as "bias" to explain why white applicants would be hired less and paid more.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#148

Post by SamUK96 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #43
gozur88 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also not believable. The idea Oracle had a system that paid white guys more because they were white guys isn't credible without more than just salary evidence.

Why is that unbelievable? They are one of the most outwardly testosterone-y companies anywhere. That kind of bullshit is catnip for fratbro types, who trend white.

Okay, but do you have any evidence or experience that Oracle is "testerone-y", nevermind "outwardly" so?

To generalise an entire company, a kind of global one at that, as that, just comes of as incredibly bitter and nieve.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#149

Post by duderific »

exabrial wrote: post #90

The real solution to the problem is everyone needs to share their income level with their co-workers as well as their performance reports. And don't be afraid to leave!

Huh? This could lead to a lot of hurt feelings and resentment, if you find out your co-worker at the same level is making $15K/year more than you. Awkward...

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#150

Post by pippy »

freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

This is why merit based evaluation is the only sane hiring practice. I'd love to see legal protection for companies that can provide evidence they strictly adhered to the merit based hires.

You can also apply this rationale to your own projects, by including the Code of Merit into your projects[0][1].

[0] https://github.com/rosarior/Code-of-Merit/blob/master/CODE_O...

[1] http://code-of-merit.org/

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