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U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#221

Post by [deleted] »

nomel wrote: post #202
aswanson wrote: post #181

Who in their right mind would want to work for oracle in 2017? That's like fighting for a gig at DEC circa 1997. They're doing candidates a favor by refusing them entrance on the Titanic.

Wow. Maybe someone who needs money for food and shelter? I support several people. If I were laid off, I would need an income within x amount of time before we all became homeless. If I were to approach that limit, I would take whatever job would prevent it. I can safely say you've never been homeless, hungry, or if you have, you had a support structure that loaned you food and a nice warm house. If that's not true,…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#222

Post by j4kp07 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #33
Trundle wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are owned by people though and your wife's underwear drawer is not a person either.

> They are owned by people though That does not mean the corporate entity has personhood and the rights that status conveys.

SCOTUS disagrees with you "My Friend" and I'm pretty sure they have more experience in these matters.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#223

Post by rconti »

temp246810 wrote: post #161
evgen wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep records that show the acceptance rate, you keep records of interviews, etc. You are not hiring at the same level where statistical anomalies such as what Oracle was caught in will show up, so unless you do something egregiously stupid like tell a candidate that you are passing on them because you don't hire people who are then you will be fine. "The game" is not your insignificant little company, it is the g…

No need to be condescending - you have no idea who, for whom, or where I hire. I was simply asking a question. But I can see how someone who says they work at Facebook in their profile thinks, thinks they are hot shit.

I think you misread "your insignificant little company" as a slight against your specific company and not "any arbitrary company". Every company is an insignificant little company compared to the market as a whole.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#224

Post by rconti »

euyyn wrote: post #204
wenbert wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New Zealand, we also have this thing called "Kiwi Experience". I think it's just an excuse to pay someone who is new to the country because they have no "Kiwi Experience". Mind you, some or maybe even most immigrants (at least from my country) have at least 3+ years experience. Job experience means more points for Immigiration NZ.

What if I just moved in, but I've eaten plenty of kiwis in my life?

Actually, Australia was the penal colony.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#225

Post by pps43 »

vthallam wrote: post #75
titomc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Most of the time it is just easier to hire Asian/Indian employees because they are readily available " - I doubt that. It's "easier" to hire because they "agree" to lower wages and its easier to retain them, because their visa status is tied to the employer. The employers have H1B workers on a leash. The process of hiring an H1B worker in short. - Hire an immigration lawyer. - Post an LCA. - Apply petition to USCIS…

> It's "easier" to hire because they "agree" to lower wages and its easier to retain them Wow. Why do you think someone on H1B will agree for a lower wage assuming he/she has a good skill set to get into oracle or similar company? Changing to a diff job on H1B involves some paper work which everyone is used to do now. If we are talking about Indian consulting companies getting low wage employees, it might be partiall…

Someone on H1B usually is also waiting for employment-based green card or promise to file for one. Going to another employer means that this multi-year process needs to be restarted.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#226

Post by explainthisth »

euyyn wrote: post #208
explainthisth wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could be easily explained in a lot of ways. Here's an example that makes sense intuitively to me: popular conception of Oracle among Bay Area locals I know is that they are money-grubbing assholes (similar reputation to an investment bank or something). They may attract a set of applicants that will negotiate aggressively and only accept high salaries. I'm white and I can sure as hell say I wouldn't work at Orac…

If it's just "white males are more reluctant to work for us", then surely that would also show in them hiring more females and more non-whites than expected, as they are more willing to work for them? It's not as if you're either a white male, or you're Indian.

The evidence "group A was hired more than than group B, and the effect was statistically significant" doesn't imply we should find a significant effect when comparing any other set of groups A, B, ~A, C, C^B, etc.

It's generally hard to prove things with statistics without a randomized experiment.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#227

Post by j4kp07 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #45
Trundle wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data they requested didn't have personhood either yet the discussion went straight to whether the corporation does. Why is that if ownership doesn't encompass property rights?

Because ownership rights are not absolute. The IRS can dig through your personal and corporate finances to ensure you're compliant with your required tax liability payments, why would you think the Department of Labor wouldn't be permitted the same? EDIT: > I don't care to discuss what the law is sorry. Why would we discuss theory and not the actual law? The law is all that matters, as that's what will be enforced .

> The IRS can dig through your personal and corporate finances

Keyword: Finances

And from what I understand, Oracle has turned all of those over. But you and others, are demanding unfettered access to every nook, cranny and file cabinet they possess.

You sound like a disgruntled socialist that simply hates bigger and better people/companies succeeding in life.

> Why would we discuss theory and not the actual law?

Said the person who hasn't read SCOTUS rulings on corporation's right to privacy, due process of law, etc.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#228

Post by torinmr »

tristanz wrote: post #201
dlss wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has actually released a paper on codifying what discrimination looks like for lending ( https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.02413 + blog post: https://research.googleblog.com/2016/10/equality-of-opportun... ). It can be trivially extended to discuss hiring. Basically a fair hiring process as defined by the above would be: P(hire | features) = P(hire | race=1, features) = P(hire | race=2, features) This may sound a bit…

Unfortunately this isn't enough. Discriminatory rules such as "don't lend to any zip code that's over 75% black" will pass this test if you include this variable as a feature. The same logic applies to less obvious cases such as purchasing behavior.

A particularly hairy case is where you use variables as features which are themselves generated through other potentially-discriminatory processes. For example, including a "has committed a felony" feature seems like a no-brainer for a hiring or lending application, but now any racial or other discrimination present in the criminal justice system has now "infected" your hiring process, so that the outcomes of your hiring process are now racially biased even though your process itself was not.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#229

Post by lobotryas »

freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

What's even worse is how easy it is to keep moving the goal post.

"Oh, you have 50% female workforce? Well, what about women of color? Not enough of them = you're discriminating!"

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#230

Post by nerfhammer »

duderific wrote: post #149
exabrial wrote: post #90

The real solution to the problem is everyone needs to share their income level with their co-workers as well as their performance reports. And don't be afraid to leave!

Huh? This could lead to a lot of hurt feelings and resentment, if you find out your co-worker at the same level is making $15K/year more than you. Awkward...

It's also sort of how any kind of organized labor is possible
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