U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#201

Post by tristanz » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:23 AM UTC

dlss wrote: post #151

lucisferre wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying that I agree with quotas as a solution to problems like discriminatory biases in hiring, but how is a quota system "discriminatory"? What race, sex or age group is discriminated against by a requirement that appropriate proportions of those demographics make up the companies employees? (Heck in most cases quotas are simply a low bar, they are not even proportional to the population demographics.) I can und…

Google has actually released a paper on codifying what discrimination looks like for lending ( https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.02413 + blog post: https://research.googleblog.com/2016/10/equality-of-opportun... ). It can be trivially extended to discuss hiring. Basically a fair hiring process as defined by the above would be: P(hire | features) = P(hire | race=1, features) = P(hire | race=2, features) This may sound a bit…

Unfortunately this isn't enough. Discriminatory rules such as "don't lend to any zip code that's over 75% black" will pass this test if you include this variable as a feature. The same logic applies to less obvious cases such as purchasing behavior.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#202

Post by nomel » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:23 AM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #181

Who in their right mind would want to work for oracle in 2017? That's like fighting for a gig at DEC circa 1997. They're doing candidates a favor by refusing them entrance on the Titanic.

Wow. Maybe someone who needs money for food and shelter?

I support several people. If I were laid off, I would need an income within x amount of time before we all became homeless. If I were to approach that limit, I would take whatever job would prevent it.

I can safely say you've never been homeless, hungry, or if you have, you had a support structure that loaned you food and a nice warm house. If that's not true, then I can guarantee you didn't force several other people to endure homelessness just because you didn't want to work somewhere.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#203

Post by euyyn » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:24 AM UTC

mooooooooo wrote: post #60

Is "culture fit" illegal? Let's say that an Indian manager hires more Indians because he feels like they are easier to work with. Now, he doesn't just hire Indians, but he is statistically more likely to do so over a large quantity of hires. Is that against the law?

IANAL, but place of origin is one of the protected categories, you can't even ask the candidate in an interview. So I would expect much less discriminate on purpose.

Also, "feeling like" someone's easier to work with sounds more like unconscious bias than reality. And if a company the size of Oracle would make hire/no-hire decisions based on such impressions, it'd be a sign that they have organizational problems.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#204

Post by euyyn » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:25 AM UTC

wenbert wrote: post #72

mooooooooo wrote: post #60

Is "culture fit" illegal? Let's say that an Indian manager hires more Indians because he feels like they are easier to work with. Now, he doesn't just hire Indians, but he is statistically more likely to do so over a large quantity of hires. Is that against the law?

In New Zealand, we also have this thing called "Kiwi Experience". I think it's just an excuse to pay someone who is new to the country because they have no "Kiwi Experience". Mind you, some or maybe even most immigrants (at least from my country) have at least 3+ years experience. Job experience means more points for Immigiration NZ.

What if I just moved in, but I've eaten plenty of kiwis in my life?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#205

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:26 AM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #199

wallace_f wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#206

Post by mulmen » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:26 AM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #199

wallace_f wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…

I completely agree with you but I'm not sure that we should tackle this problem by targeting employers alone, I think it is a much wider reaching social problem.

Discriminatory hiring practices are but one of many symptoms of the disease.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#207

Post by logandavis » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:29 AM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #167

freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

1) Don't you believe that equality of opportunity would lead to equality of outcome (plus or minus random variation)? If not, what alternative result would you predict would arise from equality of opportunity, and why?

2) Don't you see how taking steps to correct towards equality of outcome leads towards equality of opportunity (by increasing the networking / financial / inspiration opportunities for disadvantaged groups)? If you think that such correction has social disadvantages, why do they outweigh that social benefit?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#208

Post by euyyn » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:31 AM UTC

explainthisth wrote: post #146

sbov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the first sentence? > The U.S. Labor Department has sued Oracle America Inc, alleging that the technology company systematically paid its white, male employees more than other workers and unlawfully favored Asian applicants in its recruiting and hiring efforts. If you want to explain Asians being smarter as to why they are hired more I wouldn't expect them to ALSO pay white people more. Oracle is na…

This could be easily explained in a lot of ways. Here's an example that makes sense intuitively to me: popular conception of Oracle among Bay Area locals I know is that they are money-grubbing assholes (similar reputation to an investment bank or something). They may attract a set of applicants that will negotiate aggressively and only accept high salaries. I'm white and I can sure as hell say I wouldn't work at Orac…

If it's just "white males are more reluctant to work for us", then surely that would also show in them hiring more females and more non-whites than expected, as they are more willing to work for them? It's not as if you're either a white male, or you're Indian.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#209

Post by kartan » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:31 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #28

gozur88 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also not believable. The idea Oracle had a system that paid white guys more because they were white guys isn't credible without more than just salary evidence.

Systematic discrimination is not the same as literally having a process to explicitly pay non-white people less.

I see that as two different levels. Having and explicitly process to pay less non-whites is xenophobia. Paying less to non-whites because managers systematically think that they are worth less money is discrimination, as typically this valuation is based on stereotyping people. Companies have the obligation to train their managers so they don't discriminate their employees for causes of race, sex, etc.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#210

Post by euyyn » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:32 AM UTC

mooooooooo wrote: post #109

sbov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the first sentence? > The U.S. Labor Department has sued Oracle America Inc, alleging that the technology company systematically paid its white, male employees more than other workers and unlawfully favored Asian applicants in its recruiting and hiring efforts. If you want to explain Asians being smarter as to why they are hired more I wouldn't expect them to ALSO pay white people more. Oracle is na…

The pay difference can be explained by Indian nationals not demanding as high a wage to do the same work. Is it morally necessary for a company to pay groups of workers the same, even if they would accept different wages? Perhaps.

That would only account for the difference between Indians and white males. What about non-Indian women, or men that are neither Indian nor white?