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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#641

Post by lqdc13 »

Analemma_ wrote: post #316
lqdc13 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's pretend the sentence was reduced by a week instead. Would that still be the same thing?

Then Obama's action would be the letter of clemency but not the spirit, and there would be room for disagreement about whether Assange should keep his word. But since that's not what happened and Obama's actual action honors both the letter and the spirit of clemency, there's nothing worth debating here.

Didn't realize the sentence was reduced by so much. Apparently only a few months are left in the sentence.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#642

Post by KirinDave »

hnbro wrote: post #638
adrienne wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manning is a woman; is there some reason you're calling her a "they"?

does "they" imply a gender?

It can imply a number of things, from agender people to people like me who can't really be bothered to explain it.

Trans binary people enforce their gender identity quite strongly because they get so much "pushback" (a polite way of saying harassment and threats) from people. In this case "they" is tapping into that.

If you think this is complicated, try calling a baptist a catholic and see what happens.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#644

Post by kriro »

rthomas6 wrote: post #72
djsumdog wrote: post #32

Seven years is still a long time for whistle blowing. I'm glad to see she is still getting released though. It's important to note commuting the sentence is not a pardon. Chelsea will still have this conviction for the rest of her life. I know there is a lot of controversy with Manning compared to Wikileaks et. al. as far as not redacting documents or using a discriminating news source to filter them. Still, I oppose…

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

Regarding the harm it did to US relations with other countries...I think long term it would be more positive for relations with all countries if there's decent treatment of whistle blowers. Sure short term it sucks to have info along the lines of "we did X to harm your country" leaked but let's face it most sane governments assume that the U.S. is doing some very shady things and has a huge budget to execute that fairly "well". At the end of the day I'd much rather have a U.S. doing shady things and some people shining a light on it every now and then than just the U.S. doing shady things.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#645

Post by KirinDave »

wtbob wrote: post #605
sctb wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being correct cuts both ways, I'm afraid. If you'd like to offer an opinion on the matter we have to ask that it have some basis in reality. (This is not satisfied by uttering "Science.")

The reality is that Mr. Manning possesses an X and a Y chromosome, that he has male genitalia, that he is at risk for prostate cancer, that he will never have ovarian cancer, that he was able to father children but was never able and will never be able to bear them: the reality is that he is a man, regardless of what he thinks. I'm not saying that rudely, or cruelly. I think that his condition — to feel to the core o…

> The reality is that Mr. Manning possesses an X and a Y chromosome, that he has male genitalia, that he is at risk for prostate cancer, that he will never have ovarian cancer, that he was able to father children but was never able and will never be able to bear them: the reality is that he is a man, regardless of what he thinks.

See, the problem with this completely absurd argument is that for any given item on this list, I can find someone you'd happily agree is "a biological woman" who meets or has met these criterion at some point in their lives, including that "male genitalia" bit.

> I'm not saying that rudely, or cruelly.

You can assert this, but it is both rude and cruel to those who receive it. Communication is a two way street but you're taking your half of the road out of the middle and asking why everyone is so mad.

> But the objective reality is misaligned with his perception.

Would that the western world viewed gender objectively. Sadly, we do not. If we did, the concept of a strict gender binary would be laughed out of the room.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#646

Post by hnbro »

hendersoon wrote: post #322
tomp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden was very selective, and look where that got him...

Snowden wasn't selective, the journalists he chose were. As to where it got him-- he actually accomplished his goal, to start a conversation about privacy, government outreach, and secret courts. Also he's living in Moscow with his girlfriend while Manning rotted in solitary for seven years and attempted suicide several times.

i guess it's always good to have an exit strategy.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#647

Post by golergka »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #592
the_trapper wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How much time do you think someone on active duty in Iraq has to sort through data? You've clearly never been deployed. You have more free time than you know what to do with. Think about what you do when you get off shift at your job. Now remember that you have no family or friends that aren't also co-workers to hang out with. No alcohol, limited access to new movies and video games. You are also stuck within the c…

And you think you could use that free time to sort through thousands of pages of classified documents without your fellow soldiers or your superiors knowing? Time isn't the only relevant resource. Maybe I'm an asshole, but the "put lives at risk" line seems like nationalistic swill. Even if it risked American combatants, why should that justify hiding the deaths of possibly fifteen thousand Iraqi civilians?

How does it not justify it? Deaths that already happen vs quite real damage that you cause in the future?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#648

Post by hnbro »

etjossem wrote: post #533
sheraz wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feeling female and actually being one are two very different things. I do not deny that gender dysphoria is a clinical diagnosis, but that does not mean we should enable an unhealthy behavior. Rather, it is something that should be treated, and I do not think that self-mutilation is the answer (especially when funded by tax payers). Furthermore, all of this because of his "feelings"?? Are you kidding me? The west is…

> Feeling female and actually being one are two very different things. Feeling female can be an early indication that you are a woman. > I do not deny that gender dysphoria is a clinical diagnosis, but that does not mean we should enable an unhealthy behavior. On the off chance you actually care about Chelsea Manning's health, please stop referring to her as "he."

what does "feeling female" mean?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#649

Post by KirinDave »

MicroBerto wrote: post #558
afterburner wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the Hillary e-mails are actually very chilling when you start reading through them" What chilled you, specifically?

Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations?? The outright collusion with media? The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights? The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies? The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Or most chilling of all, the c…

> Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations??

Not terribly, since we can see where a lot of it went and we're not terribly upset with the outcomes?

> The outright collusion with media?

Yeah emails that emails went emails really emails well emails, right emails?

> The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights?

Clinton has a mixed track record on LGBT rights, but I trust her infinitely more than I do Trump, because her recent track record is much better. If you think she'd get a free pass for screwing over the community, you're dead wrong.

> The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies?

It.. uh... was an election campaign, dude. They're talking about being elected. But also, there ARE a ton of emails in there talking about the policy messaging. Mostly how to frame it to different people, as framing matters.

> The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately?

If Russian connections were a problem Trump would be forced to step down in favor of Pence, now wouldn't he?

> Or most chilling of all, the cryptic codespeak used in several emails?

Did you use your pizzagate decoder ring to figure out where they hid the girls yet?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#650

Post by crpatino »

hendersoon wrote: post #308
rbanffy wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse No. She leaked the documents to Wikileaks, who decided to publish them uncensored. She had no control over what Wikileaks would do. Other media outlets opted not to release information they considered dangerous. And, as @mhurron pointed out, there is no record of someone who was harmed by that information being released.

There is no record of any individual being physically harmed, but the leaked diplomatic cables were highly embarrassing, hurt the interests of the US, and were completely unjustified. They weren't exposing malfeasance or war crimes. They should not have been released. Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

When you go around doing reprehensible things, you deserve humiliation and embarrasment.

More over, if some of those reprehensible things you did, you happen to have done to your own allies, it means they are entitled to have second thoughts about whether they will want to continue aligning their interest to yours, or if they should be more assertive in the future to compensate for the cost of doing business with you.

So, you can keep shooting at the messanger all you want, but any bad outcomes comming out of this, you brought to yourselves.

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