Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence • Hacker News Board

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#331

Post by hendersoon » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:53 PM UTC

dtparr wrote: post #107

chollida1 wrote: post #11

It's been said that one person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. > The files she copied also included about 250,000 diplomatic cables from American embassies around the world showing sensitive deals and conversations, dossiers detailing intelligence assessments of Guantánamo detainees held without trial, and a video of an American helicopter attack in Baghdad in two Reuters journalists were killed, among othe…

From prior discussions, both the DOD[0] and intelligence communities[1] have whistleblower programs. This inevitably leads to questions of whether the DOD/IC IGs can be trusted to investigate the DOD/IC without the forcing function of a public release, but the programs are in place. [0] - http://www.dodig.mil/programs/whistleblower/index.html [1] - https://www.dni.gov/index.php/about-this-site/contact-the-ig...

The top NSA official who would have received Snowden's whistleblowing report was just fired for retaliating against a whistleblower.

Also, Snowden was a contractor not a NSA employee so he wasn't covered by such programs.

Your argument does not hold together.

http://www.pogo.org/blog/2016/12/intelligence-community-land...

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#332

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:53 PM UTC

hendersoon wrote: post #308

rbanffy wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse No. She leaked the documents to Wikileaks, who decided to publish them uncensored. She had no control over what Wikileaks would do. Other media outlets opted not to release information they considered dangerous. And, as @mhurron pointed out, there is no record of someone who was harmed by that information being released.

There is no record of any individual being physically harmed, but the leaked diplomatic cables were highly embarrassing, hurt the interests of the US, and were completely unjustified. They weren't exposing malfeasance or war crimes. They should not have been released. Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

> Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

AFAIK, both Manning and Snowden released large quantities of information without reviewing all of it in detail for public interest vs. potential harm, and released it not to the public but to third parties that managed public release. The difference is that Manning released it to Assange and Snowden released it to more responsible journalists.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#333

Post by hackinthebochs » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:54 PM UTC

etjossem wrote: post #300

hackinthebochs wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because there happened to be something bad among the 250k documents, the act itself is completely absolved? If I were to murder 100 people randomly should I be absolved because it turned out one of them was a child molester?

> If I were to murder 100 people randomly should I be absolved because it turned out one of them was a child molester? You sound ridiculous. Let's get to the real question. > So because there happened to be something bad among the 250k documents, the act itself is completely absolved? In short, yes. Her 7-year sentence has already been quite enough. I will concede that the outlet through which the leaks were publishe…

>You sound ridiculous. Let's get to the real question.

It's not ridiculous, its a reductio ad absurdum of the principle you seem to be employing, that a chance positive result of an action justifies the original action. Or are you just making things up as you go along to reach the conclusion you prefer?

>In short, yes.

OK, here's a more down to earth scenario. Say I'm a high level administration official and I have access to all classified information. Should I release literally all of it because surely somewhere in the dump will be some wrongdoing by somebody? Surely your answer to this must be no?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#334

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:54 PM UTC

uxp wrote: post #239

barneygumble742 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama has said that the two cases are different in that Manning has gone through the legal system, sentenced, and serving time, whereas Snowden is in a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US and hasn't been tried under the US legal system.

Specifically, one cannot be pardoned or have a sentence commuted of a crime one has not been convicted of. Snowden has not been convicted nor even tried for any crime. It's impossible for Obama to do anything about his situation.

[deleted]

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#335

Post by nxc18 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:55 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #32

Seven years is still a long time for whistle blowing. I'm glad to see she is still getting released though. It's important to note commuting the sentence is not a pardon. Chelsea will still have this conviction for the rest of her life. I know there is a lot of controversy with Manning compared to Wikileaks et. al. as far as not redacting documents or using a discriminating news source to filter them. Still, I oppose…

President Obama inherited all of those "bad" things you mention.

The real problem with all of those things is that they are politically impossible to roll back, unless the perceived cost exceeds the perceived benefit. Until your best friend ends up on a kill list, that isn't going to happen.

Imagine the following scenario: President Obama ends NSA spying, kills the drone problem, gets rid of kill lists (and presumably also killing), and stops torture (the one and only useless thing on this list). Following that, any terrorism-related incident occurs. The right destroys him for weakening our country (as they are already doing regardless). The left destroys him for weakening our country. And the trick is, predator drones, kill lists, and presumably NSA spying (which will be even more useful with the newly announced inter-agency collaboration) all do help achieve our foreign policy goals (mostly dead terrorists). They also help achieve our domestic policy goals, which partially include not having lots of deployed soldiers dying.

We can't even roll back the TSA, which is widely known to be useless, despite long waits, missed flights, thefts, bizarre restrictions, and all the other things people love about post-9/11 air travel.

For better or worse (mostly for worse), "the American voter" does not care in the slightest about scary brown people being killed (usually deservedly) in a desert half a world away.

President Obama is doing what the American people want, and right now that means commuting sentences, spying, and killing people in the desert.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#336

Post by LargeCompanies » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

He deserves this more then the coward Snowden!

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#337

Post by fullshark » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #321

afterburner wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the Hillary e-mails are actually very chilling when you start reading through them" What chilled you, specifically?

Collusion with the media and a debate moderator should chill anyone. Add to that the fact that the DNC basically anointed her by not giving Sanders a fair shake... democrats were told who to vote for using the media to give them the illusion of free choice. Put another way, the emails revealed that it's very possibly that Trump will be President because Clinton had corrupted the DNC.

> Collusion with the media and a debate moderator should chill anyone.

That is really the only significant dirt that came from that leak. The Sanders stuff was overblown.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#338

Post by jacobush » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

hendersoon wrote: post #308

rbanffy wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Manning released a large volume of information to the public en masse No. She leaked the documents to Wikileaks, who decided to publish them uncensored. She had no control over what Wikileaks would do. Other media outlets opted not to release information they considered dangerous. And, as @mhurron pointed out, there is no record of someone who was harmed by that information being released.

There is no record of any individual being physically harmed, but the leaked diplomatic cables were highly embarrassing, hurt the interests of the US, and were completely unjustified. They weren't exposing malfeasance or war crimes. They should not have been released. Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

Snowden also had hindsight of sorts, "don't release it to Assange" was probably pretty obvious.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#339

Post by pdkl95 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

With apologies to William Burroughs.

    (To the whistleblowers,
     in hope that they stay alive.)

    Thanks for systemic corruption
    and disregard for the rule of law.

    Thanks for the transparent lies and
    carefully framed talking points.

    Thanks for the profitable arms sales
    to be used against us in next year's war.

    Thanks for manufactured consent.
    "You all saw him. He had a gun."

    Thanks for the American dream,
    placing profit first until
    the bare greed shines through.

    Thanks for always shooting the messenger.

    Thanks for hate peddling politicians,
    that fear anything they don't understand.

    Thanks for the surveillance state
    and the war against privacy.

    Thanks for another Crypto War,
    while the real war criminals walk free.

    Thanks for presidential pardons,
    given only when politically convenient.

    Thanks for defending title and flag,
    betraying the oath to the Constitution.

    Thanks for always taking special care
    to make sure no good deed goes unpunished.

Thank you, Pres. Obama, for finally doing the bare minimum and eventually freeing Chelsea Manning. As a long-time believer in "better late than never", my thanks really is sincere.

There is still a lot of work left to do.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#340

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

dforrestwilson1 wrote: post #319

rthomas6 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

We live within a rules-based system. For Manning the rule was "We'll give you this security clearance, here are 100 classes about not spilling the things you know to anyone else." I too am troubled by the decision, but it does seem a bit out of whack with the total lack of punishment for the higher echelons of government. Lately it seems like the rules-based system we have been living under is cracking.

Years in solitary confinement isn't "total lack of punishment". And an intelligence contractor flunky isn't "higher echelons"