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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

bbc.com

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#131

Post by robert_foss »

derrickdirge wrote: post #56
harryf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

> global destiny Does this mean what it sounds like it means?

Well, it's a marketing prop that tries to refocus the attention on a conceivably positive aspect.

I don't think any new imperial ambitions will go over well.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#132

Post by lucozade »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #22
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

Was it for real or isn't that just a politician trying to sell something (which it sounds remarkably like)? One of the reasons Brexit is happening (at least it's argued) is due to bureaucracy. Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight?

> Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight?

What Thatcher was talking about was literally a single market i.e. where one could buy and sell goods without tariff and other protectionist restrictions.

What we have now with the EU is most definitely not that. We have free movement of people, a much expanded EU with qualified majority voting, significant social (as against economic) legislation, and the Euro.

None of these were really evident in '88 and Thatcher was dead against all of them. Fundamentally, she was a supporter of a wide ranging trade agreement and not very much else.

If you read May's bullets, she has non-tariff market access as one of priorities. She is effectively using the term Single Market to a much wider scope than Thatcher but still attempting to keep the basis of what was originally envisioned, at least in the UK, on the table.

Can't imagine the EU agreeing to this as it's moved well passed that stage but you never know.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#133

Post by mrec »

tomeehan wrote: post #104
harryf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

There's a difference between a free trade area and a political union. Thatcher was thoroughly against the centralisation of power and monetary policy in Europe, but all for free trade.

Yes. There's also a difference between a free trade area and a customs union. A lot of Americans in particular seem to think the EU works something like NAFTA when it comes to trade.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#134

Post by SixSigma »

sandbags wrote: post #107
lwhi wrote: post #41

I find her language very problematic. I didn't vote to leave—so when she claims to be speaking for the British people, I'm left wondering how my voice can count. I'm part of 48% of 72.2%; a lot of people are likely to share my concern. We need a general election. She speaks of what 'she wants'—the most problematic part of this surreal theatrical horror story is fact we the country didn't vote for her. I don't want th…

Agree completely. An ambiguous referendum that gave no guidance. An unelected PM who has taken it upon herself to define the most egregious future path. The only ethical stance is to set out definite terms (which I guess she is now doing) and hold a general election (which I am 100% sure she will not).

> An unelected PM

She was elected by her party, just like Cameron was.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#135

Post by julian55 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #50
aaron-lebo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it for real or isn't that just a politician trying to sell something (which it sounds remarkably like)? One of the reasons Brexit is happening (at least it's argued) is due to bureaucracy. Should we agree with the quote or find it wrong in hindsight?

no, its immigration, and the lack of jobs for "locals" much has been made of "bureaucracy" but in fact, most of that is hidden from the UK. The basic fact is that large parts of the UK have been left to rot, suffering terribly from the lack of decent jobs to replace the decline of manufacturing. This has been blamed on immigration, correctly or not. That is why large swathes of the country voted to leave. Now we won'…

But brexit isn't going to make life any better for those areas. Most likely it will be worse as the country as a whole will be probably poorer and less able to support deprived areas. But I expect they will still put the blame for this on someone else rather than the total failure of successive UK governments to spread wealth around the country.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#136

Post by sgift »

coldtea wrote: post #110
sgift wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> heavier countries step on the throats of lesser ones. The opposite is usually lamented in the heavier countries, e.g. here in Germany it is often lamented that a German voters vote is less important than that of a voter in a small country like Luxembourg due to the way EU representation is structured. Additionally, the voting process in the European council is structured so that bigger countries cannot just impose…

> The opposite is usually lamented in the heavier countries, e.g. here in Germany it is often lamented that a German voters vote is less important than that of a voter in a small country like Luxembourg due to the way EU representation is structured. All sides can lament, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Correct, here is what the numbers say:

'The apportionment of seats is not proportional to each state's population, nor does it reflect any particular mathematical formula; however, it is stated in the treaties that distribution of seats should be "degressively proportional" to the population of the member states. The process can be compared to the composition of the electoral college used to elect the President of the United States of America in that, pro rata, the smaller state received more places in the electoral college than the more populous states.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_...

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#137

Post by ohstopitu »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #92
lwhi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused why my comment has been downvoted. Theresa May was not voted into government. Only 52% of (72.2%) of the population voted for Brexit. Quite a disappointing response.

Further proof many, many people don't understand democracy and think you're not allowed a voice. People, democracy is not the tyranny of the majority. Quite the opposite actually.

how does democracy protect the minority? (not saying the minority does not have a voice, but how does it help, if they'll always be voted out?)

And if so (and this being a political thread) - Trump being elected is totally legit even though he got less votes (as he was voted by the majority in more than half the states) ?

Asking as an outsider - I just feel like everytime the popular opinion does not get voted in - there's an "justified" outcry (but if the majority had won - and there was an outcry by the minority - that's them being childish/not respecting democracy etc.)

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#138

Post by NetStrikeForce »

coldtea wrote: post #106
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am yet to understand how the EU makes it easier for bigger countries to step on the small ones. Do you think Germany wouldn't be able to throw its weight around to push Poland, Czechia or Slovakia to do whatever they want to? Who would legally put an opposition to that? The lack of an existing legal framework agreed upon all actors would mean there's no deterrent for an escalation if, let's say, France or UK decide…

> I am yet to understand how the EU makes it easier for bigger countries to step on the small ones. Do you think Germany wouldn't be able to throw its weight around to push Poland, Czechia or Slovakia to do whatever they want to? Who would legally put an opposition to that? Those countries themselves -- and any other state actor, that is not tied by a bureaucracy they don't control but Germany does. > The lack of an…

> Those countries themselves -- and any other state actor, that is not tied by a bureaucracy they don't control but Germany does.

That doesn't answer the question, what are you on about?

That "bureaucracy" is an actual agreement between each of those countries, up to 27 members. A one sided aggression has no legal framework of defense and it gives full advantage to the bigger bullies.

> Only then it would mean war or close, and the aggression and control would be evident (and costly).

So smaller countries have way more to lose than bigger countries.

> Whereas within a "existing legal framework" under your control (including controlling several lesser states to always vote for your interests), and with you controlling the centralized "purse" of Europe as well as its monetary policy, you get to push your agenda more effectively.

You are able to push any agenda more effectively, with the "minor" detail that the agenda has to be agreed and voted by the representatives of 27 different countries.

Would you want to try again at answering my original question? If international law is not your forte (it's certainly not mine), do you mind just answering the example questions?:

> Do you think Germany wouldn't be able to throw its weight around to push Poland, Czechia or Slovakia to do whatever they want to? Who would legally put an opposition to that?

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#139

Post by peteretep »

ar0 wrote: post #51
sjg007 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parliament has to vote on it... might be hope

But isn't this in many ways actually even more risky? When Parliament gets its vote, the two year exit period will almost certainly be almost over and a vote of Parliament will not be able to stop the exit. Instead it will be a vote on the new arrangements with the EU. So either they just have to rubberstamp whatever gets put to them or - if they vote down these new arrangements - Britain will be left outside of the…

The two year exit period can't start until parliament votes, because May doesn't have the authority to trigger Article 51 without parliament

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#140

Post by pvdebbe »

germanier wrote: post #94
pvdebbe wrote: post #74

Shame if this happens (Amazon.co.uk has been good; Amazon.de doesn't speak English), but UK must do what they think what's good for them. Doing customs declarations in Finland has turned into a hassle since the convenience of EU trade.

Just FYI, Amazon.de introduced English interface and customer support some while back (most product listings are still only German of course).

Thanks for heads-up. Sounds like I must try it out the next time I need something from there!
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