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Yes, organic farming will kill us all

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201–210 of 260 posts

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#201
post #17

Organic isn't the answer, it's trying to address some legitimate concerns, but it's a movement full of scientific woo-woo that's been legislated. For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding. This article is one example of this, the author decries traditional corn fields, and as a counterexam…

most subsistence farmers will never be able to use GMOs. It requires capital outlay that is just not possible. > For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad No, I think modern GMOs are going in the wrong direction. Modern wheat varieties have shrunk from being ~1.2 meters to not very high, through the use of selection, as has herbicide/pesticide tolerance. GMOs just make it faster. All of this means that you d…

> GMOs just make it faster.

No, GMOs will inherently change the game in the long term. We'll be able to truly engineer life to be an optimal food supply, e.g. there's no inherent reason there can't be a plant that can sit in your window, withstand freezing temperatures, and grow both tomatoes, avocados and bananas.

Some versions of this are already happening with GMO food, they're surgically introducing features to these plants that wouldn't be doable with just mutation farming.

> I can't see a combine getting up there, can you?

No, but that was my point. The author of the article is railing against industrialized farming and then producing a counterexample of some farm in Austria that clearly isn't and can't be mechanized easily. That's clearly not something you can use as a rebuke to current industrialized farming, one feeds the world, another is a backyard hobby project.

> They can't afford mechanisation, so have to manually plough and weed[...]

Yes, and the solution to this is to enrich their societies, starting with the introduction of modern farming practices. No need to start doing something revolutionary we haven't tried in the west, just introduce them to mechanized farming.

> Yes, they can be more drought resistant, but why are there droughts? [...]

Even if we perfectly manage everything else GMOs would still be a great tool to expand the use of our land for farming. E.g. you could grow some cactus in the middle of the Sahara that was easily edible.

> Farming is fucking complex, I'd suggest you go and work on a permaculture and "modern" farm, to see just what's required.

And I suggest that if you're trying to make some point here about some hidden knowledge I'm obviously missing and could only acquire through hands-on experience you just come out and point that out, rather than effectively make an ad-hominem argument by proxy.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#202
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the EPA says it'll cause kidney damage in the water table, which is what I specifically said. The WHO specifies that contamination with cadmium causes osteomalacia with various grades of osteoporosis accompanied by severe renal tubular disease. I also mentioned lead, which you've glossed right over. I said nothing about tattoo ink. Your example underscores my point. Why should I trust you when you whip out an unr…

You continue to reference chemistry inaccurately: cadmium in tattoo-ink is also harmless in the water-table, generally, because its complexed into a non-bioavailable state which is why it works in ink and paints safely. Conversely free cadmium in any form is a toxic heavy metal. No one is farming with cadmium-based fertilizer, so I don't know what the point of your first 4 paragraphs is? You tossed out an example int…

Yeah, we're not communicating well: I'm sorry. I'm making an effort.

I don't remember anywhere suggesting that _I_ was talking about tattoo ink. Context suggests that I meant the toxic heavy metal… and while I obviously am not petrified with fear of cadmium if I keep Cadmium Yellow around, I don't propose to lick it even if your context suggests it's effectively as harmless as Burnt Sienna (iron oxide-based).

And this is the point: 'organic' farming doesn't typically consist of salting one's fields, but ultra-modern high efficiency farming is based on extremely complicated chemistry and people not in the industry cannot hope to even guess at what's being done out there. Non-farmers probably don't know what crop rotation is either (an anachronism in synthetic farming) but ultra-modern farming has a nasty way of dumping LOTS of very strange chemistry into people's diets.

Trust is the issue, not 'referencing chemistry accurately' because it's not my job as a food-eater to analyze chemical compounds and reference chemistry appropriately. Try to look at the organic farming movement as a trust issue: a vote of no confidence in current and future inventions for increasing crop efficiency.

In that light, 'water is a chemical' is not an effective counter, and pouncing on cadmium in the water table (known for kidney damage) and talking of tattoo ink which is cadmium sulfide, cadmium sulfoselenide or zinc cadmium sulfide, is more behavior that tends to erode trust.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give sources? These seem to all be backwards from some of my reading and experience. - Rodale Farm is all about no till - http://rodaleinstitute.org/our-work/organic-no-till/ - Not sure about adding salt, unless you mean adding seaweed or ash? Salt is bad for the soil, and so it's known that those substances should be used prudently - As far as caring about the value of their land, it's valuable to have an or…

- I should have used the word "salts" rather than "salt". They're definitely not adding NaCl. If I get time I'll try and dig up exactly what it was. If you're adding ash you'd be horrified at the thought of adding salt, since ash is often used to combat salinity. But some crops grow well in saltier soil (or acidic soil or alkaline soil or ...), or at least better than the weeds that would otherwise grow there. [edit:…

Rodale is a non-profit.

Many conventional farms live off subsidies. They're not necessarily any more sustainable.

(I'm not from the US so can only speak of local farms. I believe its the same in the US, based on stuff I've heard and read, but don't believe random internet comments)

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given I buy a lot of locally sourced stuff, I know for a fact that no pesticides are being used. I wonder how do you know ? In huge local food bazzars in our country its not unheard that commissions finds overusage of pesticides and antibiotics because there is no strict control. Food producers are common villagers, not a scientist and they can abuse the tech for various reasons.

They're a cooperative mainly consisting of local farmers, and they don't use pesticides. My grandfather used to take care of their accounting (as a side project) and has helped build it up over the last 20+ years.

The point is, while you may personally know a single cow or few farmers, majority of the stuff entering your mouth is uncontrolled.

THe best way to combat toxins is from the inside, rather then outside IMO - take care of your liver/kidnies/skin with adequate food and supplement choices. Avoid obvious toxins such as cigarete smoke.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#205
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extremely acidic and enzyme rich system in your stomach demolishes the chemical structure, DNA, and proteins into constituant amino acids.

Amusing, but the real question is why it's safe for humans to eat corn laced with pesticides when (I assume?) we use essentially the same digestive process as the targeted bugs. Or, "why is it safe to eat food that is literally designed to have poison in it?" I would speculate that the answer is that the pesticide in question doesn't affect humans, but it's a legitimate concern.

Many bitter flavors and flavors of spicy foods actually arise from chemical compounds that are lethal to large classes of animals. The human metabolic process is very good at handling things that are poisonous to most animals, and the process of cooking is also a very effective way to combat most poisons.

Just because something is poisonous to an insect doesn't mean it's poisonous to humans, especially at the same concentrations. This is even more the case for synthetic pesticides, since companies optimize the design of synthetic pesticides for "healthy for humans, poison for pests."

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#206
post #186
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the corn produces pesticides, which are poisons, it's a reasonable question to ask "what happens when you eat the corn" - are the ears/kernels covered with it as well, or could they even contain it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_maize#Ins... Short answer: it's not a pesticide which affects humans. Discussions about poisons fundamentally have to include a discussion about mechanism of action, because plenty of poisonous things to one species are completely harmless to another - i.e. chocolate is toxic to dogs, but harmless to humans in fairly massive quantities. Debate over GMOs is in no way…

[deleted]

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farming lobby in Europe For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient, since farmers had to big pretty big actions all over France just to raise the price of milk. So I think it's not the farming lobby, but the fertilizers and pesticides lobby.

> For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient Tell that to the EU's Common Agricultural Policy. The kickbacks France gets compared to other countries is insane. Your lobbyists have been most effective!

According to the FAO, France agriculture is one of the world's most diverse, productive and qualitative.

To rephrase it: France exports A LOT of goods, produced at intensive yields and high costs, with a high dependency on subsidies and technology/pesticides.

Quality is great but, to say the least, far from sustainable.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#208
post #10

The thing with conventional farming is that a lot of the costs (in terms of environmental damage which needs to be repaired) are currently externalized, i.e. payed for by the society, which indeed makes industrial farming more cost-effective than organic farming, at least for the farmer (though in many countries you can charge a good premium for organic food, which will often outweigh your additional cost). The same…

And there is a huge unspoken problem yet. In many areas of northern Germany, even with the extremely strict limits on fertilizer and pesticides that Germany has, the drinking water, rivers and oceans are getting so massively polluted that we’re seeing massive algae blooms and drinking water slowly becoming undrinkable. It’s a massive problem, and there’s no way to solve these without massively reducing fertilizer and…

Northern Germany? Same here in the south (Bavaria).

For example, the small river that runs to and through Nuremberg is quite disgusting, lots of algae - the wrong kind, and visibly bad water quality. There is a lake in the east of the city where it runs into before going out the other end and continue through the inner city. That water is disgusting. It's quite obvious there is lots of agricultural runoff, before getting to the city the river passes mostly through farmland.

Despite disgusting, sometimes stinking water right in the city I have yet to see anyone complain or even raise the issue.

I'm from East Germany, and we had an even more polluted river (Saale), my grand parents told me people used to bath in it - I never saw anyone even touch the water. After reunification polluting industry was removed and all was cleaned up, now the water is wonderful, the right kind of algae grow, lots of fish, the water is clear and a pleasure to behold.

So Germany can do it, I have no idea why nobody cares about such a highly visible problem, after all, millions of inhabitants and visitors to the city see it every year. It stinks, literally. And sometimes it foams.

There also has just been an article in a major German paper (Spiegel) about concerningly high levels of nitrates in drinking water in many places. Still within official limits, but if you know something about those limits, their main component is "what is (technologically and financially) feasible", not "what is desirable". Also, they only test for compounds they know about already, there are thousands of compounds nobody even tests for because we have no idea how they work - especially not in combination with others. It is hardly even researched because it is too hard (not even lots of money can really help, the complexity problem is huge).

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but do you have a source for this? The EU only sets a maximum level (50 mg/l apparently [1]), but member states are free to set lower maximums. [1] http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/nitrate-in...

This is bottled water. EU dictates common limits for common market. No source, it is over 10 years ago.

So it's hearsay then?

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#210
post #115
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start by picking GMOs instead of the woo-woo that is organic farming. See e.g. a German-funded meta-analysis[1] that found that: "[...] the adoption of herbicide-tolerant (HT) soybean, maize, and cotton, and insect-resistant (IR) maize and cotton has resulted in a 22% increase in average yields, a 37% overall decrease in pesticide use, and a 68% increase in farmer profits.". 1. http://www.theskepticsguide.org/gm-impa…

> 37% overall decrease in pesticide use What's "pesticide use"? If I use 1L of super-strong broad-spectrum pesticide instead of 10L of super-weak narrow-spectrum pesticide, is that really an improvement?

That's not how it works. Instead of 1L of strong broad-spectrum herbicide you use 1L of strong narrow herbicide for weed A, 1L of strong narrow herbicide for weeds B & C, etc. None of the narrow herbicides are weak, they are just more specific in their target because you need something that kills the weeds dead but does not kill the plant you want to stick around and grow.
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