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Yes, organic farming will kill us all

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Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#191

Post by XorNot »

Applejinx wrote: post #184
XorNot wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cadmium is also in tattoo ink and completely harmless because it's not bioavailable. Your exact example proves the parents point: be specific about what you're talking about because it matters .

But the EPA says it'll cause kidney damage in the water table, which is what I specifically said. The WHO specifies that contamination with cadmium causes osteomalacia with various grades of osteoporosis accompanied by severe renal tubular disease. I also mentioned lead, which you've glossed right over. I said nothing about tattoo ink. Your example underscores my point. Why should I trust you when you whip out an unr…

You continue to reference chemistry inaccurately: cadmium in tattoo-ink is also harmless in the water-table, generally, because its complexed into a non-bioavailable state which is why it works in ink and paints safely. Conversely free cadmium in any form is a toxic heavy metal.

No one is farming with cadmium-based fertilizer, so I don't know what the point of your first 4 paragraphs is? You tossed out an example intended to say "chemicals are bad". The topic under discussion was "what chemicals are you opposed to" - because "chemical" is a meaningless and unhelpful term to make public policy on.

Perhaps then, it is important to speak accurately about chemical compounds when trying to decide how to regulate their usage, and a blanket declaration of "but it's natural!" is actually very unhelpful. Salt is natural, but that doesn't mean a farmer dumping it into a fresh-water river in bulk isn't going to kill it.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#192

Post by majkinetor »

XorNot wrote: post #91
lolive wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when you eat this BT corn?

The extremely acidic and enzyme rich system in your stomach demolishes the chemical structure, DNA, and proteins into constituant amino acids.

Macromolecules can actually pass the acid barrier. There are regular reasons such as leaky gut, HCL deficiencies, helicobacter etc.. but there also seem to be aditional processes that we do not yet understand completelly about human digestion.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#193

Post by jeromenerf »

m_eiman wrote: post #69

IMHO it's simple: current farming depends on oil. Oil will, sooner or later, be very expensive. If nothing changes, food will by extension become very expensive too: sooner or later we will need to grow food without the use of oil. Now the question is: * should we learn how to do this now, at a comfortable pace while we still have oil-based food as a backup, where wealthy individuals can opt to support this essential…

> IMHO it's simple: current farming depends on oil

Valid point, though everything depends on energy, oil being one of the main sources.

Not the only matter at hand though soil degradation, pesticide resistant pests, water pollution, ...

We actually have no quantitative problems for now: we waste over 30% of the food production, part of it being expensive food (meat, bananas, etc). See http://www.fao.org/save-food/en/

So yeah, we can afford some optimizations while researching for sustainable solutions.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#194

Post by ddebernardy »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #113
D_Alex wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would not believe how hard the "no pests" thing is in real life. It only takes a few insect eggs to start an infestation. It is hard enough to do that on a "sack of grain" scale, let alone on industrial farm scale. Only way AFAIK that pest infestation are successfully forestalled in large food storages are through refrigeration or inert or even toxic atmospheres. Both of these will not work if you are actually tr…

Well, the atmosphere only has to be non-toxic to plants, if you are actually using robots to sow, tend, and harvest. CO2/Nitrogen mix perhaps? Compartmentalization and lack of toing-and-froing by humans would help too.

Plants need oxigen to breath, too.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#195

Post by majkinetor »

charlesdm wrote: post #93
TeMPOraL wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then again, at the same time, look at all the food we throw away in the western world. Do we actually need to increase crop yield in the developed world? This is equivalent to asking if we actually need for food to be cheap / cheaper. I'd say "yes". Unfortunately, food waste is simply a side effect of it being easily and cheaply available. You can't eliminate food waste - you can't create a perfectly efficient syst…

1. Given I buy a lot of locally sourced stuff, I know for a fact that no pesticides are being used. Yes, it’s more expensive. No, your industrial GMO food won’t be healthier, because they’ll still be using pesticides. But it will be healthier than the alternative (i.e. having to use a ton of pesticides). 2. I’m not against GMO food, but I am against heavy pesticide usage. If certain crops are modified to be resistant…

> Given I buy a lot of locally sourced stuff, I know for a fact that no pesticides are being used.

I wonder how do you know ? In huge local food bazzars in our country its not unheard that commissions finds overusage of pesticides and antibiotics because there is no strict control. Food producers are common villagers, not a scientist and they can abuse the tech for various reasons.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#196

Post by aninhumer »

grzm wrote: post #182
aninhumer wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but if this is the case, a purely pedantic comment is very unlikely to do anything constructive to move the conversation forward. Because the intent of the comment was not to further that particular conversation, but instead to critique your rhetoric. It was not simply a pedantic comment saying "actually you're wrong because water is a chemical" it was a suggestion to use a different term.

It's not a constructive critique. If the intent is not to further the conversation by improving it and moving it forward, there's no constructive purpose in making it. Further comments by 'geon make this clear: there's no sincere attempt to understand or charitably grant that the interlocutor might be have a reasonable argument, even if it's one you might not agree with. Edit to add: Rapoport's rules are really helpf…

>If the intent is not to further the conversation by improving it and moving it forward, there's no constructive purpose in making it.

It is an attempt to start a different conversation. You could argue that it's off-topic, and choose not to follow up, but that doesn't mean it's not potentially constructive.

>there's no sincere attempt to understand or charitably grant that the interlocutor might be have a reasonable argument

They didn't claim that you don't have a reasonable argument to make, they just asked you to use different (more precise) terminology to make it.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#197

Post by cmdrfred »

ansible wrote: post #177
cmdrfred wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too. Can you source that claim?

I'm surprised I need to. Here's one I found in ten seconds of searching. http://extension.psu.edu/pests/pesticide-education/applicato...

That says large doses are potentially harmful to humans. It mostly speaks of harm potentinally coming to those who apply them.

I'm looking more for a peer reviewed study that states pesticides used in GMO farming are more harmful that pesticides used in organic farming.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#198

Post by charlesdm »

majkinetor wrote: post #195
charlesdm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Given I buy a lot of locally sourced stuff, I know for a fact that no pesticides are being used. Yes, it’s more expensive. No, your industrial GMO food won’t be healthier, because they’ll still be using pesticides. But it will be healthier than the alternative (i.e. having to use a ton of pesticides). 2. I’m not against GMO food, but I am against heavy pesticide usage. If certain crops are modified to be resistant…

> Given I buy a lot of locally sourced stuff, I know for a fact that no pesticides are being used. I wonder how do you know ? In huge local food bazzars in our country its not unheard that commissions finds overusage of pesticides and antibiotics because there is no strict control. Food producers are common villagers, not a scientist and they can abuse the tech for various reasons.

They're a cooperative mainly consisting of local farmers, and they don't use pesticides. My grandfather used to take care of their accounting (as a side project) and has helped build it up over the last 20+ years.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#199

Post by ptaipale »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #38
avar wrote: post #17

Organic isn't the answer, it's trying to address some legitimate concerns, but it's a movement full of scientific woo-woo that's been legislated. For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding. This article is one example of this, the author decries traditional corn fields, and as a counterexam…

The reason why GMO is bad is probably not because of the "Modified" part. It's because they're optimised to withstand heavy pesticide use. Pesticides are bad. Also, that freedom thing: GMO are generally sterile, so you have to buy seeds every year from Monsanto. Great business model for Monsanto, not so much for the farmer.

> GMO are generally sterile, so you have to buy seeds every year from Monsanto

It's incredible how these myths are able to multiply. I suppose it's because they grow organically?

To the point: No, GMOs are not generally sterile.

Also "conventional" seeds or mostly bought from a seed company, because that is most efficient. And, the subject of seed IPRs is not related to GMO technology at all; it has been there in the U.S. since 1930's and throughout the developed world by 1990's.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#200

Post by givinguflac »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #178
Angostura wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage No - mulching, no and no til are very common > For example, some organic farmers literally salt their soil Certainly in the UK you wouldn't get organic certification for doing that. The certified pesticides over here are genderally safer for the environment, if more labour intensive. > Conventional farmers care far more about the value of their lan…

"Really no. Conventional farmers can quickly boost the fertility of their soil by adding some quick-fix nutrients." Maybe in the UK, but definitely not here in Saskatchewan. Once soil has been destroyed through tillage, it takes a good decade of rehabilitation to make the soil viable again. Lost organic matter can't be replaced with a chemical fertilizer.

Can you please try to add sources? The majority of what you're arguing goes against everything I've learned. Also, saying tilling alone turned the Fertile Crescent into Iraqi deserts is absurd. There is myriad evidence of climate change playing a big part in that over the last few thousand years. I'm not saying it didn't perhaps contribute, but stating it's the direct cause is ridiculous. Also, not for nothing, but you're comparing soil recovery times in Saskatchewan (far from ideal growing conditions) to anywhere else as though the less than ideal growing conditions there are a representative sample of conditions worldwide, which is misleading at best.
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