Yes, organic farming will kill us all • Hacker News Board

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#151

Post by loup-vaillant » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:21 PM UTC

geon wrote: post #33

loup-vaillant wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to assume organic food is much more expensive to produce than chemical food. You'll need to justify that assumption, especially in the face of hidden costs: scorched soils (that require chemicals to grow anything ), light but pervasive food poisoning (pesticides), growing resistances to our pesticides and antibiotics, heavy dependence on fossil fuels, as well as quite a bit of oil for chemicals. As a not so…

Please don't use the word "chemical" like it is something unnatural or harmful. Water is a chemical. The active ingredients of natural fertilizer are chemicals.

It's "intellectual property" all over again. While I agree my usage of "chemichal" is loaded, I think "conventional" is even worse: it's an implicit acceptance of the status-quo, and unfairly shifts the burden of proof.

On a "chemical vs organic" debate, we focus on the (over) use of synthetic, unproven, or even unsafe chemicals. Reducing their use, if possible, is obviously a good thing.

On a "conventional vs organic" debate, we focus on the risks associated with change. We have a working system. Changing it on a global scale is an obvious risk.

I am personally convinced massive change is necessary, and the sooner the better. So I frame the debate in a way that doesn't talk much about the associated risk, and focus on the benefits. I am not aware of a more accurate, more neutral term to name that conventional/chemical thing.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#152

Post by geon » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:24 PM UTC

grzm wrote: post #94

geon wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use terms that convey the objection you have to it. Or object to the negative effects they have in the first place.

What specifically do you suggest? If you're being pedantic and snipey, you're not engaging in good faith. If you disagree with the general argument, be honest and say so. If you're looking to have a constructive discussion, help move the conversation forward, which includes showing you understand what they intend to say, even if you disagree or they're not expressing themselves as clearly as you'd prefer. Understanda…

I don't have a specific suggestion, but it could be something like "synthetic fertilizer kills the symbiotic microbes nevvessary to..." rather than "scorched soils (that require chemicals to grow anything)".

Just an example. I have no idea what "scorched soil" means.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#153

Post by ArkyBeagle » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:27 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #29

> global soil deterioration I learned something new and important today. For some reason, I thought this was a solved problem since Haber–Bosch process was invented. Apparently it isn't so.

Oh no. It's blindingly complex. The Dust Bowl happened well after Haber-Bosch.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#154

Post by bryanlarsen » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:28 PM UTC

mjpuser wrote: post #129

bryanlarsen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criticisms of conventional farming are valid, but that doesn't mean that organic farming is any better. I believe that organic farming is much more likely to cause soil degradation and environmental harm than conventional farming for several different reasons: - organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage, which causes immense amounts of damage to the soil directly and allowing the soil to…

Can you give sources? These seem to all be backwards from some of my reading and experience. - Rodale Farm is all about no till - http://rodaleinstitute.org/our-work/organic-no-till/ - Not sure about adding salt, unless you mean adding seaweed or ash? Salt is bad for the soil, and so it's known that those substances should be used prudently - As far as caring about the value of their land, it's valuable to have an or…

- I should have used the word "salts" rather than "salt". They're definitely not adding NaCl. If I get time I'll try and dig up exactly what it was. If you're adding ash you'd be horrified at the thought of adding salt, since ash is often used to combat salinity. But some crops grow well in saltier soil (or acidic soil or alkaline soil or ...), or at least better than the weeds that would otherwise grow there.

[edit: other commenters have linked to the use of copper salts in organic farming]

- From a quick glance, Rodale is a non-profit. That definitely allows them to do things that farmers who have to make a profit to feed their family can't do.

- It's awesome that Rodale is studying organic no-till. Herbicides are a crappy way of controlling weeds, it's just that tillage is worse.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#155

Post by rini17 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:31 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #98

rini17 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only your preconceptions that are ludicrous. In 1990s agriculture in Russia partially collapsed, so people turned to their small plots of land and "captured the food production". They were lucky they knew how - the communist government-managed centralized distribution was unreliable so the skill was handy. Of course, there's no hard data from this chaotic period, but being from eastern european country myself, i…

Those home food gardening systems aren't sustainable, if you're implying that. They very often use artificial fertilizers (and in wrong dosages ,too - hey if one gram is great, 2 grams must be better, right?) They are often based on tilling and/or small monocultures with maybe a basic crop rotation system, etc. Sure, they have beneficial aspects that traditional farms don't have, but home-scale subsistence farming is…

I can't even. Of course they are sustainable without artificial fertilizers, if compost and animal manure (nothing big necessary, just chicken and rabbits) is used. Of course, you can use fertilizers and stuff in unsustainable way, too, but what does that prove or disprove?

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#156

Post by specialist » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:32 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #17

Organic isn't the answer, it's trying to address some legitimate concerns, but it's a movement full of scientific woo-woo that's been legislated. For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding. This article is one example of this, the author decries traditional corn fields, and as a counterexam…

Herbicide resistent (Roundup Ready!) plants are bad.

Patenting life is bad.

Using your patents to then economically enslave the developing world is bad.

If you call all that GMO, then GMO is bad.

Objectively, empirically, morally, ethically. Bad.

I know, facts are second millennium woo woo. Sorry, I just haven't been able to let go. Must make me bad too.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#157

Post by specialist » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:35 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #65

avar wrote: post #17

Organic isn't the answer, it's trying to address some legitimate concerns, but it's a movement full of scientific woo-woo that's been legislated. For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad, but is just fine with irradiating large fields full of plants to accomplish random mutations through radiation breeding. This article is one example of this, the author decries traditional corn fields, and as a counterexam…

The current definition of what "organic farming" is has been obviously corrupted by the current farming industry. In the end it's just a label. But the question remains: how can we do sustainable farming, without polluting the soil and the water and without poisoning humans? If we can't find a way to make that work, then we are all heading towards an apocalypse, because what we are doing currently isn't sustainable.…

"In the end it's just a label."

Worse. It's a racket. Text book regulatory capture.

If pressed, our local farmers say something like "traditional farming". But they can still claim no pesticides, no growth factor, yadda yadda, without paying off some goons.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#158

Post by jsudhams » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:37 PM UTC

Organic in my place(South of India) means no chemical and only used cattle dung/ food waster / or plant itself as manure/Fertilizer. No other chemical used but in my experience we made only 10 bags of paddy per acre while if we use Urea / Potasium + pesticides we managed up to 30 to 35 bags of paddy. I am not sure why in use organic farm still uses any chemical. There are good techniques to deal with pest though not very effective.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#159

Post by specialist » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:37 PM UTC

riprowan wrote: post #97

latch wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reducing the consumption of meat seems like a step in the right direction. It's a huge drain on water, land, energy and calories. At the very least, people should be paying for the real cost. Taking it further, instead of subsidizing these industries, I wouldn't mind seeing a beef-tax.

I think you overgeneralize industrial meat production to all forms of ranching. There are huge areas of the USA that are not amenable to farming but which can be ranched. Raising cattle on these lands does not necessarily consume any water, food, or arable land that would be productively used otherwise. This form of ranching serves many purposes, one of which is to simulate the effect of millions of grazing animals r…

"There is such a thing as sustainable ranching..."

Give two examples (in the USA).

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#160

Post by tomp » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 12:39 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #128

tomp wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this as if there was no organic poison that could kill you if you eat it...

You didn't ask about poisons. You asked about the corn. It does what corn does.

If the corn produces pesticides, which are poisons, it's a reasonable question to ask "what happens when you eat the corn" - are the ears/kernels covered with it as well, or could they even contain it?