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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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101–110 of 182 posts

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#101

It most definitely is and it takes a very starry eyed sort of person to expect otherwise. The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union under the rule of an un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy of "commissioners" who rule by means of "directives" (you couldn't make it sound…

I'd argue the exact opposite is true: an absence of strong centralized authority will be its undoing. The competing powers in the world, China, Russia, and the United States, are all organized around subsuming diverse social, economic, and geographic groups beneath centrally organized power. This allows them to amass tremendous resources towards pursuing their narrowly focused geopolitical agendas, and outcompete independent states or smaller coalitions. Despite how comforting nationalism can seem, the reality is that no one member of the EU is capable of independently resisting threats to their sovereignty from one of these groups. Any reprieve from "oppressive bureaucracy" is going to be eventually undone by a loss of autonomy from an outside force. It's not starry eyed, but a cold, cynical choice about the bigger thing to which you're going to belong.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#102
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you agree that it is by no means mandatory? Also, Denmark?

No, I don't. All the non euro countries are working to be admitted, because going forward is the only way. Brits and Dansk are crazy people, who cares what they do. edit: all the non euro countries from the eastern block signed to adopt euro in the future.

> All the non euro countries are working to be admitted

Now you are just making things up.

Edit: then you should rethink using Wikipedia as your source because that is not accurate. EU cannot force countries to join new treaties this way. The EC may really really want to, but they have no legal right to.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#103
post #54

It most definitely is and it takes a very starry eyed sort of person to expect otherwise. The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union under the rule of an un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy of "commissioners" who rule by means of "directives" (you couldn't make it sound…

> un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy So tell me, what is this? http://i.imgur.com/zhVYPwN.jpg And what is this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhafgcPeXes Or is it maybe actually elected, actually held accountable? > The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union Aha, so h…

The US did it by virtue of it being a lot more homogeneous when it was first created. Last time I checked they didn't need any translators when they were debating the constitution, nor is the US constitution printed in 17 official translations like all EU documents and treaties are. Also, most people actually came to these shores having nothing but bad memories (if not outright contempt) for the countries they left behind and they were eager to embrace a new identity. The new land had a dominant cultural identity and they quickly aligned to it. Finally, the experience of the revolutionary war and a few more major wars down the road helped with "bonding" - to use a cute phrase. None of above conditions hold for Europe. The French are not eager to shun their national character and start speaking German and the last time they went to war they fought against the Germans and the Italians, not alongside them.

Additionally, crossing the Atlantic served as a filter to select only those people that were truly desirous of becoming Americans. Disgruntled EU voters have the nasty habit of lingering around.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#104
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it's exceptionally difficult to have 1/ that functions well without 2/ The Euro was designed as a bulwark against currency speculators and people trying to arbitrage between imbalances in the different European economies.

Not difficult at all, many EU countries have decided to stay outside the euro zone. They are doing just fine.

Whether they're 'doing fine' wasn't the question at hand - it was whether the economies had harmonized with the rest of the EU.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#105
post #14
post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

Immigration. Mainly workers from poorer countries taking working jobs.

Agriculture. Again, low cost producers undercutting domestic producers.

And there's legit questions to be had about monetary policy (or the lack thereof), as well as EU courts undermining local law.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#106
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy So tell me, what is this? http://i.imgur.com/zhVYPwN.jpg And what is this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhafgcPeXes Or is it maybe actually elected, actually held accountable? > The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union Aha, so h…

By the time it was formed, not even half of the people spoke a common language Are you counting Native Americans? I've never heard this before.

He probably meant half of the actual USA. AFAIK there were large communities of Germans, French, Dutch and Danish. Not counting African slaves.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#107
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, EU countries have always had the possibility of border control (with some limitations). Its just that not having border control is cheaper and allowing people work across birders is good for the economy. So basically until late 2016 the pros outweighed the cons.

This isn't true... Poland has decided to close its borders to immigrants, and the EU wants to fine them 250k an immigrant for it. The whole reason Brexit happened is because Britain wants to implement border controls. Edit, Proof: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countr... Just get rid of these fines, and quotas, and give people control of their borders back.

There are today legal border controls from Mediterranean all the way up to the Scandinavia.

Blaming EU for your own officials incompetency is soooo uk-2016

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#108
As long as austerity is enforced under the eu-mark the disintegration is a certainty.

The only way it could be saved would be to jettison the euro or at least the convergence criteria. Germany doesn't seem keen on a succesful EU, perhaps there's some underlaying anger over those last couple of attemps to ruin Europe. One can only guess.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#109
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you agree that it is by no means mandatory? Also, Denmark?

No, I don't. All the non euro countries are working to be admitted, because going forward is the only way. Brits and Dansk are crazy people, who cares what they do. edit: all the non euro countries from the eastern block signed to adopt euro in the future.

> Now you are just making things up

No, I'm not, it's part of the treaties.

Can't you lookup things on Wikipedia?

Is it to hard for you?

"The other nine members of the European Union continue to use their own national currencies, although most of them are obliged to adopt the euro in future."

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about primary, but I think a big one is the EU forcing countries to meet a quota of "refugee" immigration. Poland for example is refusing to accept these immigrants and paying a pretty big fine for each one they turn away [1]. Other countries like France and Germany are buckling to the pressure from the EU and accepting them, and we've all seen how well that has worked out for them. So I think not having…

The interesting thing here that it's not "EU vs EU member countries" - members do come up with, and vote on ideas. It's not like evil EU parliament said that everyone has to take immigrants, so everyone now has to and that's it. The move came about because of the flood of immigrants coming to Italy and Greece, mostly - and serious concern that neither one of those two countries can deal with the problem on their own.…

It is not the EU telling these countries what to do. It is other EU countries telling other EU countries what to do, just because they have more votes.

What if one EU country wants to do something else? Can't different EU countries just choose to do their own thing, and be ruled by their OWN population, instead of people in Germany deciding what happens to people in Poland?

If greece doesn't want to deal with these immigrants then THEY should chose to close their own borders.

Self determination is the fundamental issue at stake here.

The EU IS telling countries what to do! People in Germany are deciding what happens to people in Poland!

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