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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#51

Post by [deleted] »

adrinavarro wrote: post #30
powertower wrote: post #4

edit: -deleted- this thread has been moved from the front-page, back 5 pages. There is no point making (nor leaving) good arguments in dead threads that no one can see nor take part in.

Huh? It's about creating an identity, a single market, and in the process, creating peace. I don't feel it is attempting to destroy national identity, if anything, it allows it to thrive (as long as it is compatible with the EU idea). Same goes with individual and national rights. EU policy provides a common framework, and if anything, it only overpowers states in favour of its citizens (see ECJ).

[deleted]

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#52

Post by gambiting »

artursapek wrote: post #31
api wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

I don't know about primary, but I think a big one is the EU forcing countries to meet a quota of "refugee" immigration. Poland for example is refusing to accept these immigrants and paying a pretty big fine for each one they turn away [1]. Other countries like France and Germany are buckling to the pressure from the EU and accepting them, and we've all seen how well that has worked out for them. So I think not having…

The interesting thing here that it's not "EU vs EU member countries" - members do come up with, and vote on ideas. It's not like evil EU parliament said that everyone has to take immigrants, so everyone now has to and that's it.

The move came about because of the flood of immigrants coming to Italy and Greece, mostly - and serious concern that neither one of those two countries can deal with the problem on their own. It has been decided(democratically, by representatives from each member country, not some evil court of villains!) that other member states will help lessen the burden, by taking a certain quota of immigrants, so that Italy and Greece don't collapse(even more). Yet in some media(particularly in the UK) it's portrayed as EU telling member countries what to do, without any notion that those countries also voted on this issue and agreed to it.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#53

Post by walterstucco »

bostand wrote: post #33
kristianc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it's exceptionally difficult to have 1/ that functions well without 2/ The Euro was designed as a bulwark against currency speculators and people trying to arbitrage between imbalances in the different European economies.

Not difficult at all, many EU countries have decided to stay outside the euro zone. They are doing just fine.

not many, of the original EU founders only Sweden hasn't adopted euro.

The other 6 out of 25 that are not using the euro are all ex communist countries. and other two (Monte negro and Kosovo) adopted euro without being part of EU.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#54

Post by kuschku »

MarcusBrutus wrote: post #24

It most definitely is and it takes a very starry eyed sort of person to expect otherwise. The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union under the rule of an un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy of "commissioners" who rule by means of "directives" (you couldn't make it sound…

> un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy

So tell me, what is this? http://i.imgur.com/zhVYPwN.jpg

And what is this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhafgcPeXes

Or is it maybe actually elected, actually held accountable?

> The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union

Aha, so how did the US do it? By the time it was formed, not even half of the people spoke a common language (There was quite a large amount of German and French immigrants in those days), it was full of groups with different religions and traditions.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#55

Post by walterstucco »

dkb wrote: post #42

Interesting article. I do believe that the EU will collapse, and that it is only a matter of time. First of all, there is not a single instance in History where a common currency, such as the Euro, succeeded. It always has collapsed. Different people in France have developed about this exact subject. I believe that more and more people are in favor of existing the EU. In the case of France, the first thing that peopl…

yeah, everything will collapse eventually, given enough time.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#56

Post by bjelkeman-again »

muninn_ wrote: post #7

You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. We will see a huge change in European political landscape within the next few years. People have to slowly assimilate into a culture in order to allow for a gradual, peaceful change in that culture. Shocking these types of systems with any sort of migration is a recipient for instability. Please keep in mind that this isn't any sort…

The US takes in about a million legal immigrants per year [1], the EU took in 1.6 million immigrants from non EU countries in 2014 [2]. The US has a population of 320 million, and the EU has 508 million. So the immigration is about the same per capita. So I think it should be possible to deal with that.

[1] https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2015/tab...

[2[ http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#57

Post by drawnwren »

vivekd wrote: post #48
ComradeTaco wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see an overall trend of of authoritarianism and nationalism as a response to immigration and an increasingly changing world. There's also a pretty heavy streak of anti-intellectualism as voters were encouraged to fundamentally reject experts that gave (IMHO well-founded) warnings about the ill-effects of Brexit and Trump. In short: Nationalism in, Globalism out.

My own country, Canada, seems to be doing a good job, and I'm not sure but I think we have even higher immigration rates than Europe or the United States and we're still a fairly liberal, progressive and integrated society. I think our secret is selective immigration, we are much more selective than Europe in regards to who we let into the country and we don't have the illegal immigration issue on the scale that Amer…

I would be very surprised if total (legal and illegal) Canadian immigration is anywhere close to US or Europe. Do you have any numbers to back this claim?

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#58

Post by akjainaj »

licnep wrote: post #18
sean_patel wrote: post #5

> For now there is crisis and disintegration wherever I look: the eurozone is chronically dysfunctional, sunlit Athens is plunged into misery, young Spaniards with doctorates are reduced to serving as waiters in London or Berlin, the children of Portuguese friends seek work in Brazil and Angola How much truth is there, to this statement i.e. "young Spaniards with PHDs are serving as Waiters in London or Berlin." Anyo…

This is just anecdotal but I know that spanish people have trouble finding jobs and often stay in school longer while living with their parents. I know two spanish people with a BA, one went au-pairing in france, another one couldn't find a job and moved to morocco cause it was cheaper. So while it may be exagerated, there's probably some truth to that statement. The euro has destroyed the mediterrean economies.

>The euro has destroyed the mediterrean economies.

That's implying Mediterranean economies would be better off without the Euro. I beg to differ.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#59

Post by bostand »

stale2002 wrote: post #34
bostand wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

Exactly! Give back control of borders to countries, and just run the EU like a NAFTA free trade zone. Bam, best of both worlds!

Oh yes, the "EU, give us back control of our borders" rhetoric.

Your CAN have border control right now, in fact many northern European countries have border control among themselves today.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#60

Post by d0mine »

lomnakkus wrote: post #35
DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

If we're talking "what would work best for everyone in the world", then I kind of agree that many small "states" (or whatever) would perhaps be for the best, but that opportunity has passed with the existence of superstates like the US, China, India and Russia. In the world we currently exist, the only rational[1] thing to do is to amass as much power[2] as possible. There are upsides, though, e.g. the ability to div…

Germany alone has GDP larger than Russia. Other than the number of nuclear devices in unknown condition, what makes Russia a superstate?
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