China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level • Hacker News Board

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#231

Post by CaptSpify » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

idra wrote: post #111

contingencies wrote: post #94

What a silly article: "download the controls to the private sector" indeed. The government already owns the telcos, half the banks, the only domestic interbank transfer system and the only domestic travel reservation system so they have your IMEI, real time location and history, network traffic, bank balance and payment and employment history and travel plans anyway. And that of your friends/relatives. They certainly…

What a silly comment, complete with the mandatory "it's worse in the US" passage that mysteriously appears in half of the comments to China-related articles on HN. Yes, the governments owns telcos etc. Yes, they probably have files on people they consider a threat, such as human rights activists. But to think that all that data is accessible in some kind of coherent manner is ridiculous. This is China, where banks ca…

> Do you really feel safer in a country where you can get jailed without trial, where you can jailed, deported and banned from re-entry based on a urine test at the whim of some provincial government official that you crossed paths with?

I've never been to China, but I legitimately can't tell which country you are talking about based on that sentence.

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#232

Post by zimpenfish » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #217

zimpenfish wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber went from allowing "While using the app" + "Always" to only "Always". I was perhaps misunderstanding the parent as suggesting that once an app has allowed "While using the app" as a choice, that could never be removed - ie Uber would still have to allow "While using the app" as a choice. If that was the case, apps might avoid offering the "While using" choice in the first place if they might ever consider the ne…

I was suggesting that no application should be allowed to remove "while using" ever, regardless of what they initially offered. that is the current permutations which an application can provide are: * no, using, always * no, using * no, always I do not think the latter should be allowed.

I would definitely be on-board with this proposal (or "for one hour, until the end of the day" similar to "Find Friends".)

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#233

Post by frik » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

metafunctor wrote: post #142

peteretep wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google allowing apps to read > phone IMEI in Android An unpopular sentiment, but this is why I love iOS. I genuinely don't think any of my apps can meaningfully spy on me without my having told them they may. I even get reminders if I've let an app read my location in the background, to check that's what I want to do.

This is exactly why I use iOS over Android on my main phone. With iOS, I only need to trust Apple (approximately). They have a pretty good track record of respecting their users' privacy, and enforcing app vendors to do the same. With Android, I need to trust a lot more parties, like Google, the hardware vendor, and every app I use to not do something crazy or shady without asking or notifying me first.

Well, I thought the same about Microsoft. Back in the days, Microsoft had a good track record. And you bought the product, they were the biggest software company, etc.

But late Steve Palmer and especially Nadella changed Microsoft completely. Nowadays, the user is the product, Windows 10 spies on you and send keystrokes, audio, install apps and what not to various IP adresses, you cannot deactivate it, ads in startmenu, pre-installed adware apps, etc. And Snowden revaled that Microsoft was the first company to hand over data (Hotmail/Live/Outlook.com). So the trust in Microsoft is gone.

I hope Apple keeps it good track record.

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#234

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 4:52 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #211

delegate wrote: post #185

> Now every picture posted, every comment made, every driving infraction could go into a central database to produce a person's 'trustworthiness' score. How is this China-only ? Can't Facebook do the same ? Can't the government force Facebook, Microsoft, etc to give out all the information that we generate in their networks ? Can't they compute such a "trustworthiness" score and sell it to your (potential) employer ?…

1. Secrets that are widely known don't stay secret for long. Snowden leaked a lot of documents and none of them said the government was doing this already. 2. The data that is out there is _very_ messy. If you have a unique name and you use it as your twitter handle, sure, this is already happening. It's called Klout. But most companies just use it to figure out what image to put on their coupons. 3. I've never heard…

> Secrets that are widely known don't stay secret for long.

From the Carnivore and the big NSA installations in the late 90's to Snowden there were more than 10 years. That may not be "long" on your definition, but isn't something to dismiss.

> We're not in a nightmare phase, we're in the same phase we've always been in.

The current situation is clearly different from those you point. We never had universal surveillance in history, as it only became possible very recently. It's not a "nightmare phase", but it is unprecedentedly and nobody knows where it will lead.

The solution isn't just to use encryption (although yes, using encryption is part of the solution), there's some deep political transformation going on, and any solution will only arrive by mixing technological and social factors.

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#235

Post by monksy » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #127

monksy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When going overseas, all of those are required anyways: 1. The DB wants to see id (that they can verify) for Eurorail passes. The DB or the Belgian rail people require seeing the purchasing CC. 2. Buying a sim in europe requires a passport. 3. Most things you sign up for in the US requires a phone number. Loyalty programs certianly do. 3.1 Walgreens requires your ID in hand to scan it to verify that you're "over 21"…

1. Yes, I've always had to use my passport with my Eurail passes; though often it's to prove I'm an American who is eligible for the cheaper pass. 2. No, only in certain countries. I've bought SIMs from vending machines in Iceland and Denmark. In Italy the merchant made me seriously promise, I really mean it to send him a photo of my passport as soon as I returned home with my SIM. He gave me his personal gmail addre…

> In Germany, rumor was you basically had to be a German citizen to get a SIM; that turned out to be untrue but I cannot remember if I gave them my (EU but not German) passport

From my experience, you do have to have your passport with you when getting a Sim. They usually make a photocopy of it. (This was from O2)

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#236

Post by sametmax » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #160

sametmax wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a network of people you can trust, or build some fake lifes, or do a lot of things in parallel of the system. Most of the time all of them together. It's work, but it's possible. The problem is: it's more work for ordinary people. The systems in place are making it difficult for citizen to exist outside of the system, change it, or express differences. But it doesn't make it as difficult for criminals to be…

> build some fake lifes How do you plan on doing that if most stores and banks stop accepting cash, and to get a debit or credit card you need to show government ID, which is electronically verified (it has an RSA keypair, signed by the government, stored on its chip). It becomes impossible.

Most stores don't stop accepting cash right now, and I doubt they will in the future. I know more shops refusing credit cards than ones refusing cash in France.

You can also live without a bank. Several people I know do so. Again it's work, but it's possible.

A lot of the time, people saying it's impossible really are asking "how can I keep my confortable life 'as-is' while going off the grid". THAT is impossible. You can't live your current life, because it depends heavily on the system.

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#237

Post by kuschku » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #236

kuschku wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> build some fake lifes How do you plan on doing that if most stores and banks stop accepting cash, and to get a debit or credit card you need to show government ID, which is electronically verified (it has an RSA keypair, signed by the government, stored on its chip). It becomes impossible.

Most stores don't stop accepting cash right now, and I doubt they will in the future. I know more shops refusing credit cards than ones refusing cash in France. You can also live without a bank. Several people I know do so. Again it's work, but it's possible. A lot of the time, people saying it's impossible really are asking "how can I keep my confortable life 'as-is' while going off the grid". THAT is impossible. Yo…

The situation changes depending on country.

In Sweden, not even banks accept cash anymore, and close to no stores. There, it is literally impossible.

Germany and France tend to be a lot more sceptical of new developments, which I’m grateful for.

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#238

Post by DashRattlesnake » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #229

paulmd wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. We've banned ... needlessly asking for credit reports / scores. No, it's perfectly legal for employers to run a credit report on you and make a hiring decision on that basis. You're outright incorrect here. http://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryhannon/2013/03/16/has-your-... > 4. License agreements are generally unenforcible. Good luck proving that in court. Especially when you just also agreed to mandatory binding a…

3. It's banned almost everywhere in the western world except for America. California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Nevada, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, and NYC have banned it unless it's needed for the job (i.e. they give you a credit card) and even the states where it is legal it's still not used for non-sensitive positions or responsibilities, and if it started to become widespread t…

> You cannot unknowingly agree to binding arbitration either.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. Hasn't Wells Fargo managed to use binding arbitration clauses to successfully dodge lawsuits about the accounts they fraudulently opened?

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/business/dealbook/wells-f...

Those contracts are large, rarely read, often use lots of technical jargon, and are subject to being unilaterally changed by the issuing party. Hardly anyone understands everything they're "agreeing" to.

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#239

Post by et-al » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 8:40 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #141

peteretep wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google allowing apps to read > phone IMEI in Android An unpopular sentiment, but this is why I love iOS. I genuinely don't think any of my apps can meaningfully spy on me without my having told them they may. I even get reminders if I've let an app read my location in the background, to check that's what I want to do.

Even though I like Android more, I have to agree that iOS has had a better privacy story. But even iOS has problems. For example I cannot force apps like Waze or Uber to only use my location while using them, you have to either disable location for them completely, or to allow them to take your location while running in the background. It's an either/or proposition and the result is that Waze and Uber users do have t…

> For example I cannot force apps like Waze or Uber to only use my location while using them, you have to either disable location for them completely, or to allow them to take your location while running in the background.

What if one quits the app? Then it's no longer in the background and can't track your location, right?

Re: China has wealth of data on what individuals are doing at a micro level

#240

Post by masklinn » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 8:48 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #205

masklinn wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Apple could have made the list unmodifiable so that application can't "opt out" of the "while using the app" setting.

That wouldn't achieve much, apps already tend to give rationale for those settings, the apps could just say "If you dont choose Always, we're done here" (they already do that for "Never") and people would just be conditioned to accept Always

The application wouldn't have a way to see that. If you select "When Using" it would just not get any geo info (or even backgrounding time) when not in active use.