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EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

epa.gov

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Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#101

Post by djrogers »

bit_logic wrote: post #88

This is all happening because at some point the car companies had this choice to make: 1) Deprecate/shutdown gas-only car factories, build hybrid factories with an upgrade roadmap to plugin-hybrid and eventually EV. Then make all models and all trim levels (from base to premium) hybrid as a starting point 2) Continue using gas-only car factories to get more ROI and profit, use shady tactics that either secretly viola…

This is 'all happening' with diesel engines, which are a tiny percentage of gas-only engines sold in the US. Your choices above seem to ignore option 3 - stop making diesel engines and only sell gasoline engines.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#102

Post by oh_sigh »

jpollock wrote: post #68
kylehotchkiss wrote: post #44

Why don't they just do emissions tests by attaching a probe to exhaust and taking the car on a normal drive. Harder to fake results when you're not performing them in the same lab conditions.

It makes it impossible to compare between models or even between model years. Since a key use of the information of for a consumer to compare between two cars to decide which they should purchase based on emissions and fuel economy, a repeatable test is a key requirement.

Then put the car on rollers for a fixed speed/acceleration/time profile

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#103

Post by djrogers »

problems wrote: post #42
benjarrell wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diesels are required to have a particulate filter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter Which is usually used with exhaust fluid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most regular consumer vehicles aren't required to have a urea/DEF system, but all the big trucks and commercial vehicles tend to. Somebody was blaming this on trucks, but I'm thinking this might be the opposite - their small cars as it was with VW because they don't have these sorts of systems in place.

The engine in question did have a DEF system though...

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#105

Post by avn2109 »

blakeyrat wrote: post #11

Note: they mean exceeding in the bad direction, not the good direction. At first I thought this was some kind of spoof article, or Chrysler marketing effort. It should probably read "exceeding limits" not "exceeding standards". EDIT: actually the press release doesn't even say that really. It says Fiat Chrysler installed software that could impact emissions testing but didn't tell the EPA about it, which is considere…

For automotive scandals like e.g this one and Dieselgate it's always surprising how much outrage people muster.

If an automaker sells N cars exceeding some emissions limit by 100%, people get out the pitchforks.

But if that same automaker sells 2N conforming cars, it's widely heralded as a Good Thing.

However, to a first approximation, the environmental impact is equivalent in each case (or arguably worse in the latter case, because of increased energy and materials consumption).

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#106

Post by alphabettsy »

cocoa19 wrote: post #97
blakeyrat wrote: post #11

Note: they mean exceeding in the bad direction, not the good direction. At first I thought this was some kind of spoof article, or Chrysler marketing effort. It should probably read "exceeding limits" not "exceeding standards". EDIT: actually the press release doesn't even say that really. It says Fiat Chrysler installed software that could impact emissions testing but didn't tell the EPA about it, which is considere…

Someone "accuses" you of wrongdoing (negative direction). Exceeding standards usually means better than the standard (positive direction). I agree with you. Title needs an update.

Exceeding the speed limit is illegal, but I understand what you're saying.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#107

Post by alphabettsy »

avn2109 wrote: post #99
alphabettsy wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have to make such a claim? These diesel vehicles were not truly "affordable" to start with, they are a very costly upgrade (> $4000) over the base engines. A truck that starts at over $37,000 and an SUV start at over $40,000. While these are obviously vehicles the average middle-income person might be able to afford, it's a far cry from the $27,000 starting price of the RAM and these aren't leavi…

>> "GM, BMW, MB, and Ford" GP here. My whole point is that ~everyone is cheating to various degrees, it's just that not everyone has been caught yet.

Based on?

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#108

Post by lutorm »

bit_logic wrote: post #88

This is all happening because at some point the car companies had this choice to make: 1) Deprecate/shutdown gas-only car factories, build hybrid factories with an upgrade roadmap to plugin-hybrid and eventually EV. Then make all models and all trim levels (from base to premium) hybrid as a starting point 2) Continue using gas-only car factories to get more ROI and profit, use shady tactics that either secretly viola…

This is a curious statement given that both this and the VW violations pertain to diesel-powered vehicles, not gasoline ones (hybrid or not).

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#109

Post by alphabettsy »

josu wrote: post #15

Donald Trump was celebrating just a few days ago that Chrysler was going to open a new plant in Michigan instead of in Mexico[1][2]. Could this be a political move by the EPA? [1] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/81846086267555840... [2] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/81846146776682496...

It could be due to the fact that they were caught in Germany a few months ago doing the same thing.... Or that another major automaker was just caught, bringing greater attention to it. I'd say those are both more likely.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#110

Post by [deleted] »

avn2109 wrote: post #105
blakeyrat wrote: post #11

Note: they mean exceeding in the bad direction, not the good direction. At first I thought this was some kind of spoof article, or Chrysler marketing effort. It should probably read "exceeding limits" not "exceeding standards". EDIT: actually the press release doesn't even say that really. It says Fiat Chrysler installed software that could impact emissions testing but didn't tell the EPA about it, which is considere…

For automotive scandals like e.g this one and Dieselgate it's always surprising how much outrage people muster. If an automaker sells N cars exceeding some emissions limit by 100%, people get out the pitchforks. But if that same automaker sells 2N conforming cars, it's widely heralded as a Good Thing. However, to a first approximation, the environmental impact is equivalent in each case (or arguably worse in the latt…

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