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EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

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Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#61
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've ever been near a major automaker's test engineering lab, you quickly realize that ~all of them are doing shady things to hit their numbers. This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thi…

"This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thing or they fall behind." I'm going to have to remember to bring this up as an example whenever people claim private industry can police/regulate them…

> I'm going to have to remember to bring this up as an example whenever people claim private industry can police/regulate themselves.

Do people actually claim that? That's insane.

The natural state of all groups with the same interest is collusion. Self-policing only happens if there is a viable threat of even worse external policing. (Example: the Hays' code for films, which was only voluntarily established because of the looming threat of outright legal censorship of the film industry.)

Likewise, competition only emerges when:

* Parties are in a zero sum game where they lose little from cooperation.

* They lack the means to communicate and collude efficiently.

* They are forcibly prevented from colluding (anti-trust laws, etc.).

In the modern world where private communication is cheap and easy and where almost all market interactions are non-zero sum, the only thing preventing giant mega-cartels is the threat of legal action.

And even that's not working well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PepsiCo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHeartMedia

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thing or they fall behind." I'm going to have to remember to bring this up as an example whenever people claim private industry can police/regulate them…

there'd be no incentive to lie if the EPA wasn't forcing these "standards" on them. Now, there's no reason to innovate because someone spends big bucks to actually do what everyone else is lying about. This isn't damming of private industry - it's damming of the regulation. (Er, to me. Obviously you might come to a different conclusion. Just wanted to throw in how this article can be read both ways.)

We'd all have health problems and shortened lifespans from air pollution, but hey, at least automakers wouldn't be lying to us.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#65
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not why they're popular. They're popular because the average American thinks bigger is better and they also want a bigger car for when they have an accident, they can kill the other person instead of themselves.

Though I see a slight grayish tint to your comment indicating some down votes, you're spot on. Does anyone really think someone's automotive buying decision goes something like, "yeah, it's hard to park and the mileage sucks, but at least I don't have to take 30 minutes out of my day once every few years to go get emissions tested. That'll make the rough ride and the hundreds of extra dollars in fuel expenses worth i…

It's more that their different classification makes them cheaper. If SUVs had to play by the same fuel economy standards as cars, they'd be a lot more expensive than they are. I don't know if they actually have different emissions standards, but if they did then the same thing would apply there.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#66
post #58

Volkswagen, a German company, admitted wrongdoing, is paying $4.3bn in fines and will see its executives, domestic and overseas, jailed by the U.S. government [1]. Curious if Fiat Chrysler will see those checkboxes--admission of wrongdoing, material fines and jailed executives--filled. [1] http://abcnews.go.com/US/volkswagen-pleads-guilty-pays-43-bi...

I personally don't think that jail for simply emitting NOx above limits is worth it

An estimated 60 people have died because of these excess emissions.

What penalty would you consider appropriate for someone breaking the law, resulting in 60 deaths?

Should it matter what law was broken, or how those deaths were caused?

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#67
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever driven in a snowstorm? They're popular in areas with snow because the drivetrain handles better in the snow, and the higher ground clearance means that they can handle unplowed roads.

An awd sedan works great on the unplowed roads in Colorado.

May have been a bad decision, but I drove a Toyota Solara (2-door Camry) through years of winters in (properly) upstate NY. Knowing when/how to drive in snow goes a long way further than AWD or ground clearance.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#68

Why don't they just do emissions tests by attaching a probe to exhaust and taking the car on a normal drive. Harder to fake results when you're not performing them in the same lab conditions.

It makes it impossible to compare between models or even between model years.

Since a key use of the information of for a consumer to compare between two cars to decide which they should purchase based on emissions and fuel economy, a repeatable test is a key requirement.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#69
post #66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't think that jail for simply emitting NOx above limits is worth it

An estimated 60 people have died because of these excess emissions. What penalty would you consider appropriate for someone breaking the law, resulting in 60 deaths? Should it matter what law was broken, or how those deaths were caused?

60 people was just an estimate from statistics, and NOx emissions are not a new problem either.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#70
post #7

I have a feeling this is just the first in a long line of violations that are going to surface due to the VW scandal.

If you've ever been near a major automaker's test engineering lab, you quickly realize that ~all of them are doing shady things to hit their numbers. This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thi…

It's not just automakers. I have seen things in heavy industry that not only push the envelope but could be called outright cheating.
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