Live data from Hacker News

EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

epa.gov

41–50 of 137 posts

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thing or they fall behind." I'm going to have to remember to bring this up as an example whenever people claim private industry can police/regulate them…

there'd be no incentive to lie if the EPA wasn't forcing these "standards" on them. Now, there's no reason to innovate because someone spends big bucks to actually do what everyone else is lying about. This isn't damming of private industry - it's damming of the regulation. (Er, to me. Obviously you might come to a different conclusion. Just wanted to throw in how this article can be read both ways.)

If standards weren't forced on them we'd be living in smog-choked cities. Markets can't efficiently deal with tragedy-of-the-commons situations because the air belongs to everyone and there is no way to do price discovery. Even a manufacturer could advertise based on being eco-friendly the effects would be minuscule thus consumers would have little reason to prioritize such features.

You're essentially claiming we should abolish all regulations period because some people will cheat. The actual solution is to heavily punish cheaters. We don't have to guess and argue about this; go visit China then come back here and regale us about how horrible the EPA is and how we should eliminate pollution regulations.

The technology may not exist yet but government standards can be a forcing function that makes manufacturers invest in creating it and bringing the cost down.

In fact government has had a huge hand in many forms of innovation; the trans-continental railroad was only made possible by government backing. The internet could not have been created by private companies from scratch, but government investment made bootstrapping possible.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The release doesn't actually state that they violated emissions standards. It just says that they failed to notify the EPA of the presence of software that can alter the vehicle's emissions profile. Do trucks and SUVs in the US even have emissions standards? I know they're exempt from emissions tests in many states which is part of the reason for their popularity.

Diesels are required to have a particulate filter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter Which is usually used with exhaust fluid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most regular consumer vehicles aren't required to have a urea/DEF system, but all the big trucks and commercial vehicles tend to.

Somebody was blaming this on trucks, but I'm thinking this might be the opposite - their small cars as it was with VW because they don't have these sorts of systems in place.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#43
post #2

You think they would've done something after the Volkswagon disaster... this is either extreme ignorance (we don't really know what our code does) or malicious intent (let's hope we don't get caught like them).

The release doesn't actually state that they violated emissions standards. It just says that they failed to notify the EPA of the presence of software that can alter the vehicle's emissions profile. Do trucks and SUVs in the US even have emissions standards? I know they're exempt from emissions tests in many states which is part of the reason for their popularity.

> Do trucks and SUVs in the US even have emissions standards? I know they're exempt from emissions tests in many states which is part of the reason for their popularity.

In 1999, California enacted its LEV (low emissions vehicle) II regulations, which moved most pickup trucks and SUVs into the same regulatory scheme as passenger vehicles: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/levprog/levii/factsht.pdf

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The release doesn't actually state that they violated emissions standards. It just says that they failed to notify the EPA of the presence of software that can alter the vehicle's emissions profile. Do trucks and SUVs in the US even have emissions standards? I know they're exempt from emissions tests in many states which is part of the reason for their popularity.

Diesels are required to have a particulate filter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter Which is usually used with exhaust fluid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

DEF (AdBlue) can significantly reduce NOx emissions. It's now standard in modern heavy diesel trucks, busses, etc. However, it's very rare to find it in light diesels such as cars and SUVs which often have real-world NOx emissions far in excess of what emissions standards allow.

DPFs remove visible soot from diesel emissions, but their actual benefit for health is less clear. They don't trap the ultra-fine, PM2.5 invisible sooty particles which are the most dangerous because they can penetrate the lungs and enter the bloodstream. These particles are associated with increased risk of cardiovascular diseases and cancer.

DPFs also tend to break down after a few years of use. Often, they end up being (illegally) removed by owners who don't want to pay for an expensive replacement.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#47
post #7

I have a feeling this is just the first in a long line of violations that are going to surface due to the VW scandal.

If you've ever been near a major automaker's test engineering lab, you quickly realize that ~all of them are doing shady things to hit their numbers. This is a result of the cold hard engineering fact that our current level of technology is insufficient to hit the numbers without raising costs significantly. But once one automaker starts to fudge the numbers at a given price point, all the others must do the same thi…

iirc the original (college) study which found VW emissions were way higher than they should've been also found that a BMW diesel produced the book figure

Edit: Ah - "Vehicle C was fitted with a 3.0L turbocharged in-line six-cylinder engine in conjunction with an aqueous urea-SCR system and DPF for NOx and PM control, respectively" from here[0] page 25

[0]http://www.eenews.net/assets/2015/09/21/document_cw_02.pdf

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#48
post #15

Donald Trump was celebrating just a few days ago that Chrysler was going to open a new plant in Michigan instead of in Mexico[1][2]. Could this be a political move by the EPA? [1] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/81846086267555840... [2] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/81846146776682496...

It could be, but it almost certainly is not.

Yeah, I mean I don't think he's complained about the EPA busting emissions violators, has he? He at least seemed to be pushing a "clean air and water" thing, which something like this should certainly fall under, even if you don't want to police carbon emissions aggressively as some would like to.

I think problems like this deserve investigation effort and aren't particularly political - probably an easy play to your average citizen.

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#49
post #15

Donald Trump was celebrating just a few days ago that Chrysler was going to open a new plant in Michigan instead of in Mexico[1][2]. Could this be a political move by the EPA? [1] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/81846086267555840... [2] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/81846146776682496...

Why wouldn't they have done the same thing to Ford months ago?

Re: EPA Notifies Fiat Chrysler of Clean Air Act Violations

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diesels are required to have a particulate filter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter Which is usually used with exhaust fluid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most regular consumer vehicles aren't required to have a urea/DEF system, but all the big trucks and commercial vehicles tend to. Somebody was blaming this on trucks, but I'm thinking this might be the opposite - their small cars as it was with VW because they don't have these sorts of systems in place.

You're right. It's now light diesel vehicles that are the primary problem with regard to excessive NOx emissions. At least in Europe, where there are a huge number of light diesel vehicles on the roads.

But there are, of course, a lot of old pre-DEF heavy vehicles on the roads too that would not comply with modern emissions standards.

Post reply on HN