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9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

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Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#111

Post by xaa »

vivekd wrote: post #14
tjic wrote: post #6

I've met a lot of people who "couldn't" find a job. What they usually mean is "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else." This is a highly overconstrained search. If / when people loosen one or more of these constraints, they're opportunities open right up. Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I w…

The problem is education is tailored towards particular jobs. For example if you have a degree in biology, sure you can get a job in a factory paying almost minimum wage. . . but it wouldn't pay enough for you to cover your student loans and still be able to move out. There seems to be a serious lack of jobs that let people actually have a life. . . and I'm not talking about picket fence in the suburbs dream home kin…

There ARE jobs in biology. I have one. But IME, in fields like this, or creative fields like writing, graphic design, etc, students should know what they're getting into: extremely competitive fields where you can do very well if you're excellent at what you do, and can easily find yourself unemployed if you're only "good".

It's like planning on the NBA or acting as a career: a high-risk proposition that requires total dedication in exchange for an uncertain chance of success. There are some people who are OK with that.

I think the conclusion is that only very dedicated students should go into these fields, which would simultaneously reduce the supply of people trying to go into them, and reduce the number of unemployed people with these degrees. I have little sympathy for someone who chose a high-risk degree like biology and then complains it didn't work out (at least the author of the article didn't make THAT mistake). People who think they are guaranteed a job in any given field simply because they have a degree, or that all careers have equal odds of finding steady employment, are completely out of touch with reality.

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#112

Post by lj3 »

extra88 wrote: post #110
lj3 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more practical considerations. Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? The stigma is real and it's more than just pride. A fall from middle class to lower class can become permanent through nothing more than that stigma. With that comes a higher mortality rate across the board.

If it was only three months, I wouldn't list the burger-flipping job on my resume. I think I'd be fine leaving any gap less than a year in duration on my resume. A year or more, I'd want to account for.

What if the interviewer saw you flipping burgers a month ago?

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#113

Post by lordnacho »

tjic wrote: post #6

I've met a lot of people who "couldn't" find a job. What they usually mean is "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else." This is a highly overconstrained search. If / when people loosen one or more of these constraints, they're opportunities open right up. Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I w…

One thing I've heard of from other sources is that managers who offer menial jobs like burger flipping and supermarket checkout will not actually employ someone who can get a better job.

Doesn't sound like the guy in the article has tried, but he may find his situation is a lot worse when it gets to that level of desperation.

The reason is of course that if you're running a McDonalds or supermarket, you don't want a guy who you know is actively searching for something else and will leave immediately when he finds it. There's a cost to finding and training people, even if it's a lot less than finding a dev.

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#114

Post by extra88 »

lj3 wrote: post #112
extra88 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was only three months, I wouldn't list the burger-flipping job on my resume. I think I'd be fine leaving any gap less than a year in duration on my resume. A year or more, I'd want to account for.

What if the interviewer saw you flipping burgers a month ago?

Sounds rather unlikely in SV but if they did, so what? The resume got me the interview, I should be able to demonstrate my value. If they're still going to treat me like I'm somehow tainted for briefly working a low-status job, I can't do anything about that.

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#115

Post by extra88 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #79
swamp40 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just met a retired plumber when he charged us $500 to clear roots out of our main line. He said he had to shut down his business - couldn't find anyone willing to learn the trade. He said no one wants to get their hands dirty anymore. He said it's a shame, they could basically charge as much as they like - write their own tickets.

Our obstetrician said something very similar - he only does obstetrics, and says that it's a very unpopular field to get into. Probably for very similar reasons.

Obstetricians have to pay a lot for malpractice insurance because they get sued a lot. I'm sure the cost and potential of being defensive with every patient makes med students look to other specialties.

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#116

Post by yummyfajitas »

dpark wrote: post #89
yummyfajitas wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy openly admits that he isn't expending any force of will. He's sitting at home all day reading twitter while refusing to work jobs that he thinks might lower his social status. If you refuse to try a strategy for 2 years, that's not evidence the strategy won't work.

I'm not sure what "strategy" you're referring to. If the strategy is to "never settle and by force of will reshape the world around them to conform to their expectations", then it sounds like he's been trying that strategy. Hundreds of applications, multiple all-day interviews. That actually does seem like he's trying, or at least he's tried in the past. What he should be trying is a new strategy, not pouring more fo…

I think I misunderstood your comment and was responding to a different point. Sorry.

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#117

Post by dagw »

quickben wrote: post #54

There is nothing embarrassing about manual work. When I was 17, at one point, I sold toilet paper, on the street, in a third world country, to get some cash for my PC. Various jobs netted me half the cash for my PC over 6 months. My parents could scrape for the rest. 486dx-120mhz. Right now I'm in a comfortable seniority, renting a townhouse ( Toronto is too expensive to buy) and having a family. The c++ projects kee…

Would I, if anything happens, go back to selling toilet paper or digging cannals to survive and strive? Without a doubt.

As might very well the guy in the article. The 'problem' is that his survival is in no way at stake. He's looking at the difference between a quite comfortable life and a more comfortable life. When those are the stakes then it's a lot harder to build up that motivation.

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#118

Post by pavel_lishin »

lj3 wrote: post #108
pavel_lishin wrote: post #67

> There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job to help out with extra cash. But I’m worried about getting stuck in a position with even less room for growth than my previous jobs. And to be honest, I would be too humiliated. Our social circle, made up of mostly well-paid tech workers and professionals, has no idea how bad our situation has been. It would be ex…

There are more practical considerations. Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? The stigma is real and it's more than just pride. A fall from middle class to lower class can become permanent through nothing more than that stigma. With that comes a higher mortality rate across the board.

> Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job?

Would you want to hire one who spent the last 3 months doing nothing because he couldn't find a job?

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#119

Post by dagw »

jotato wrote: post #70
quickben wrote: post #54

There is nothing embarrassing about manual work. When I was 17, at one point, I sold toilet paper, on the street, in a third world country, to get some cash for my PC. Various jobs netted me half the cash for my PC over 6 months. My parents could scrape for the rest. 486dx-120mhz. Right now I'm in a comfortable seniority, renting a townhouse ( Toronto is too expensive to buy) and having a family. The c++ projects kee…

You had Patents at 17?! Kudos! ;) My parents taught me the same way. I have worked many manual labor jobs, and I wouldn't blink an eye to go back if I had to. I wouldn't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must

I wouldn't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must

What if you didn't have to support your family, since your wife could to that for you? Would you still feel the same drive to do so if it wasn't a "must"?

Personally I feel that that is the crux of the article. He knows he can get a job, but he also knows he doesn't need to, and the sort of jobs he could get won't make a huge difference to their bottom line, and he's having a hard time reconciling all these things to himself.

Re: 9M American men in prime working age can’t find jobs. I’m one of them

#120

Post by infosecdude64 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #118
lj3 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more practical considerations. Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? The stigma is real and it's more than just pride. A fall from middle class to lower class can become permanent through nothing more than that stigma. With that comes a higher mortality rate across the board.

> Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? Would you want to hire one who spent the last 3 months doing nothing because he couldn't find a job?

I would sooner hire a person who is flipping burgers to support his family than I would a guy who surfs twitter like this whiner. This guy sounds like he'd be a pain to work with, I mean if you can't find the humility in working a service job to support your family and help out, then what would you expect him to do in the work place if given an assignment he felt was below him.
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