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Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

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Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#101

Post by _andromeda_ »

c0nducktr wrote: post #99
_andromeda_ wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a cash payment could conceivably make less efficient (and paternalistic) forms of in-kind wealth transfers unnecessary Nobody said that this new form of wealth transfer will replace existing forms of wealth transfer. The goal here is that it would run in tandem with existing forms of redistribution. It is a delusion that it will ever be enough. Once UBI is in place, other forms of egalitarianism will soon follow unt…

I find the transfer of wealth from workers to capitalists pretty atrocious myself.

I know it seems that way on the surface but some people (typically entrepreneurs) take on more risk than most people are willing to stomach. They (capitalists) in turn are rewarded with the multiplication of their capital investment when things pan out. If the opposite happens, they're the ones who suffer the consequences and they learn to make better decisions next time round. That is why I'm typically against government bailouts - they get in the way and undermine this natural occurrence as opposed to letting the markets weed out poor decisions and inefficiencies.

Workers should also be compensated according to the quality of work (read: value brought in) that they produce. Workers can and should be wealthy too under this premise.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#102

Post by evanwolf »

cookiecaper wrote: post #27
anondon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the status of the MOOC? When can we expect additional details? YC should consider writing the occasional blog post about the projects it's working, it would be interesting to follow and the feedback from HN might be useful.

Would YC really be upfront about the success or failure of this experiment? Most people are shy enough about failures in professional contexts where impacts are isolated to the company itself. The outcome of this pilot has real potential political ramifications, further disincentivizing those who're committed to basic income (as YC obviously is) from revealing any serious flaws or difficulties experienced, beyond the…

It's all about the feedback loop. Failure analysis (where necessary) is more than a bumpersticker obituary. And we also need to catch lessons learned along the way, both the microfailures we learn from and the assumptions we tested and proved correct/incorrect. Last, it's vital to turn periodic recaps into more organized and systematic bodies-of-knowledge so it's fast/easy to learn from the history we're writing together.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#103

Post by Steeeve »

flexie wrote: post #61
_andromeda_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles ab…

I grew up in what is generally considered an extremely successful socialist society; Denmark. All media is fully or partially state sponsored, a third of the adult population is on some kind of welfare (incl public pension or student grants), a third of the adult population work for the government, and only a third of the adult population work in private companies, many of which derive all or a big part of their inco…

I'm curious about this, because I have an entirely different perspective. I know nothing about Denmark, but I have seen that Sweden's student debt is on-par or higher than student debt in the U.S. despite free tuition. But earning potential in Sweden is much lower.

How is class mobility in scandinavian states? Can you work your way up from the dregs of society to the top levels?

If I want my kids to go to a great school like Stanford or Harvard, can I reasonably expect to be able to find a way to cover tuition as a member of the middle class?

If I'm looking for a job in the $200k US range, what are my potential career options?

What kind of housing can I expect to find if I'm a sole earner as a software engineer with a family of 6?

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#104

Post by flexie »

Steeeve wrote: post #103
flexie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in what is generally considered an extremely successful socialist society; Denmark. All media is fully or partially state sponsored, a third of the adult population is on some kind of welfare (incl public pension or student grants), a third of the adult population work for the government, and only a third of the adult population work in private companies, many of which derive all or a big part of their inco…

I'm curious about this, because I have an entirely different perspective. I know nothing about Denmark, but I have seen that Sweden's student debt is on-par or higher than student debt in the U.S. despite free tuition. But earning potential in Sweden is much lower. How is class mobility in scandinavian states? Can you work your way up from the dregs of society to the top levels? If I want my kids to go to a great sch…

Universities are not so divided into good and bad ones. Almost nobody think that way.

Social mobility is higher than in the US but the highs are lower.

Almost nobody makes $200k in Denmark, and fewer make it year after year. Even lawyers, dentists, medical doctors usually make less. But you also don't really need it. Public services such as schools, universities and hospitals are great.

You wouldn't be able to live anywhere near Copenhagen if you are on a developer's salary and you need space for 4 kids. Most women in Denmark work. It's not a place designed for one income.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#105

Post by kwhitefoot »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #83
flexie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in what is generally considered an extremely successful socialist society; Denmark. All media is fully or partially state sponsored, a third of the adult population is on some kind of welfare (incl public pension or student grants), a third of the adult population work for the government, and only a third of the adult population work in private companies, many of which derive all or a big part of their inco…

Scandinavian countries also happen to feature prominently in the list of the most expensive countries to live in and I don't think that in the long run it is sustainable - just ask the Greeks. Someone has to pay dearly for all these extravagant social programs. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/21/map-expensive-count...

> Someone has to pay

Yes, and in Scandinavia we do. In Greece they didn't, hence the problem.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#106

Post by kwhitefoot »

edblarney wrote: post #30

I think the limitation of UBI experiments is that they are inherently microeconomic, they might measure the individual effects of the program, but not measure the resulting macro issues of what 'Universal' would really imply across broad strata of society.

One must start somewhere.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#107

Post by lancewiggs »

tomcam wrote: post #50
solipsism wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. There are social programs that have been incredibly successful. And pointing to the USSR is a shameful strawman.

Why is the USSR a strawman?

Because it was a dictatorship, and Communism, not Socialism. Socialism is as practiced in Scandinavia, UK, France, the rest of the EU really, NZ, Australia and so on and on. Socialism has become a dirty demonised word in the USA and that gets in the way of the equality of opportunity benefits a decent society provides.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#108

Post by Steeeve »

flexie wrote: post #104
Steeeve wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about this, because I have an entirely different perspective. I know nothing about Denmark, but I have seen that Sweden's student debt is on-par or higher than student debt in the U.S. despite free tuition. But earning potential in Sweden is much lower. How is class mobility in scandinavian states? Can you work your way up from the dregs of society to the top levels? If I want my kids to go to a great sch…

Universities are not so divided into good and bad ones. Almost nobody think that way. Social mobility is higher than in the US but the highs are lower. Almost nobody makes $200k in Denmark, and fewer make it year after year. Even lawyers, dentists, medical doctors usually make less. But you also don't really need it. Public services such as schools, universities and hospitals are great. You wouldn't be able to live a…

Very interesting, thank you.

> Speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Danish PM Lars Løkke Rasmussen told students that he had “absolutely no wish to interfere the presidential debate in the US” but nonetheless attempted to set the record straight about his country.

> "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.

> “The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.

I just found this quote from the Danish PM. What I find interesting about it is that it indicates the kind of distrust of socialism that I grew up with. I don't feel that social programs are bad, but socialism as a political goal is particularly disturbing. Based on history, governments should not be trusted with that kind of control - even if there are altruistic people involved, the bureaucracy can't meet the changing demands of society. And there are few altruistic people involved in government.

Personally, I think that people in the US shouldn't be thinking about solving problems with more welfare, but in figuring out what's wrong with existing welfare programs which are extensive. That and we need to revise the kind of productivity and consumer friendliness that we expect out of our government. Things like Universal Income wouldn't be considered if someone in trouble could expect to receive help in a timely manner, and if the help was smart and not tied to rules that don't make sense and put additional burdens on struggling people. Most people that are dissatisfied with our current welfare system would be astonished at the resources that are available, and frightened by the hoops that people have to jump through to receive much of it. We've been exposed in a small part by the health care changes recently, but I doubt anyone in my current social circle has experienced waiting in line for 16-24 hours at a social security office, nor have they known anyone who has tried to work for free in order to work their way up the ladder to a job that would both get them off of a welfare program and provide enough income to get by. I've gone off on a tangent, so I'll stop now. :) Your perspective was helpful to me.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#109

Post by tmnvix »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #56
tmnvix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers. I'm sorry, but this is idealogical nonsense. The classic 'non-producer' is the rentier. Quite the opposite of what you seem to be implying (i.e. that the needy are the 'non-producers').

It really isn't a question of the rentier class vs proletariat. Capitalism solved that problem a long time ago. Surely, capitalism has lifted billions from poverty. Anyone can make it if they apply effort. Anyone. There is no discrimination against hard work, smart work. A non-producer simply means, someone who is not providing a good or service of value to a willing buyer.

> Surely, capitalism has lifted billions from poverty.

True. And while I think capitalism is generally a good thing, lifting people out of poverty doesn't make it a good thing necessarily. By that measure communism in China would be a good thing - after all, Mao also lifted millions out of poverty. Many dictators have done the same.

> Anyone can make it if they apply effort.

Not at all. You can be disabled, held back by family obligations or even by a harmful family, be remarkably unintelligent, mentally ill, or otherwise be unlucky in any number of ways.

> A non-producer simply means, someone who is not providing a good or service of value to a willing buyer.

According to you. To me a non-producer is someone whose income is unearned[1].

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unearned_income Unearned income refers to income received by virtue of owning property (known as property income), inheritance, pensions and payments received from public welfare. The three major forms of unearned income based on property ownership are rent, received from the ownership of natural resources; interest, received by virtue of owning financial assets; and profit, received from the ownership of capital equipment.[1] As such, unearned income is often categorized as "passive income".

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#110

Post by solipsism »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #57
tomcam wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the USSR a strawman?

Exactly! I see it as basically the same thing. Redistribution of resources from producers to non-producers. You have to look at it from a very fundamental vantage point.

s/fundamental/simplistic/

Fixed that for ya

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