Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#91

Post by thenomad » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 1:07 PM UTC

_andromeda_ wrote: post #43

sama wrote: post #17

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're confident everything is working well (especially with issues like making sure no one loses eligibility for income-based benefits) and then start the full-scale study.

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles ab…

I don't agree with this post at all, but my understanding is that downvotes on HN are for content that does not contribute to discussion, as opposed to content with which one disagrees.

This is a well-written and heartfelt statement of a point of view on this topic and it deserves respect for that, even if you fundamentally disagree with its thesis ( as I do, on at least two separate counts ).

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#92

Post by thenomad » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

_andromeda_ wrote: post #40

solipsism wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. There are social programs that have been incredibly successful. And pointing to the USSR is a shameful strawman.

Are you arguing against basic human nature? For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? The people who put in actual graft. But the question is, for how long? Is this sustainable. This is a mindset and it must be fought against vehemently. You want to help people? Advocate for the following: - hard work as opposed…

Why on earth would I or anyone advocate for either of the extremes you're proposing here?

Acquiring skills is valuable (not just by reading books - there are lots of ways to acquire skills; yes, including watching TV) but relaxing is also valuable. Partying is valuable.

And it's fun, too.

Likewise, rewarding achievement is a good idea, but so is comforting your son if he's upset that he performed badly at something he tried hard at.

And I'm assuming we're all reasonably familiar with the idea that neither 100% hard work (120+ hour weeks, 52 weeks of the year) nor 100% indolence are great ideas?

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#93

Post by WalterBright » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

_andromeda_ wrote: post #85

WalterBright wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No communist societies have ever been able to feed themselves - from the Pilgrims, to the USSR, to Jamestown, to the kibbutzen, to North Korea. Voluntary or coercive, the results are the same.

If this is Walter Bright creator of D, I must say I'm in awe. Nonetheless, I agree with you 100%. It doesn't matter what form it takes. Majority of my millennial peers refuse to even accept that socialism leads to the inevitable outcome that is communism and that it is an evil that would deprive all of us of our individual liberties to a point where all human decency will be lost.

The great thing about a free market country is people can form workers' collectives if they want to. The only thing is they can neither force anyone to join nor prevent anyone from leaving.

Many such have been formed over the years in the US, and they've all collapsed.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#94

Post by DanBC » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #45

_andromeda_ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing against basic human nature? For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? The people who put in actual graft. But the question is, for how long? Is this sustainable. This is a mindset and it must be fought against vehemently. You want to help people? Advocate for the following: - hard work as opposed…

> For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? Those people are already being supported with fantastically expensive bureaucratic benefit systems. Sometimes those systems also act as a disincentive to return to work, trapping people on benefits, by making it impossible for them to get education or work experience o…

FRUSTRATINGLY I forgot to include the link to the YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KwQTsO7Kok

He wants to stop claiming benefit; he wants to declare work. His answer doesn't fit into their checkbox, and so a simple question takes 7 minutes.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#95

Post by _andromeda_ » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

thenomad wrote: post #91

_andromeda_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles ab…

I don't agree with this post at all, but my understanding is that downvotes on HN are for content that does not contribute to discussion, as opposed to content with which one disagrees. This is a well-written and heartfelt statement of a point of view on this topic and it deserves respect for that, even if you fundamentally disagree with its thesis ( as I do, on at least two separate counts ).

Thank you for coming to my aid. I had begun to think that I was hated by all and sundry just because I'm different!

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#96

Post by _andromeda_ » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #93

_andromeda_ wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is Walter Bright creator of D, I must say I'm in awe. Nonetheless, I agree with you 100%. It doesn't matter what form it takes. Majority of my millennial peers refuse to even accept that socialism leads to the inevitable outcome that is communism and that it is an evil that would deprive all of us of our individual liberties to a point where all human decency will be lost.

The great thing about a free market country is people can form workers' collectives if they want to. The only thing is they can neither force anyone to join nor prevent anyone from leaving. Many such have been formed over the years in the US, and they've all collapsed.

Indeed a free market allows for workers to voluntarily unionise but seldom is it the case that members are free to leave at will. Any form of collectivism yields the loss of personal liberty and loss of property rights(members cannot opt out of perpetual membership fees). It doesn't help that most union leaders are disingenuous actors who exhibit acidic levels of corruption only comparable to that of majority of government bureaucrats.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#97

Post by labster » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 2:47 PM UTC

_andromeda_ wrote: post #75

aninhumer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Work is good. Work allows us to eat, get shelter, clothing and move civilisation forward while at it. Work may currently be necessary, but it is not "good". For most people it is boring and unpleasant, and a world where they could do something else would be a better world. Telling people who spend the majority of their lives working two jobs and still live in poverty that they "don't HAVE to work, they GET to work"…

Oh please, there are many a people even on the Forbes list who worked multiple jobs in the beginning. That did not stop them from achieving their goals and being in possession of abundant resources in the long run. Now please don't take that to mean that all people will be on a Forbes list. The point here is that you can start out doing multiple menial jobs but with discipline, hard work and a culture for savings, YO…

Wow, such naïevité. And such arrogance.

Some people just have bad luck. They can do all the right things, but never get the break they need to succeed. Others are born women in cultures that will simply not allow them to succeed. People can work harder than you their entire lives, and make better choices than you, and still not be economically successful.

This kind of self-righteousness from the lucky is so annoying.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#98

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 3:12 PM UTC

_andromeda_ wrote: post #78

raleighm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeking in advance the idea that is right (or left) on the political spectrum is a bad approach, and anyway gets you nowhere in the face of an issue like basic income where heroes of the right and of the left disagree adamantly amongst themselves. If Friedman isn't "right" enough for you, how's Thomas Paine? See his pamphlet entitled "Agrarian Justice". Point is: there is no correct "right" or "left" or "capitalist"…

>a cash payment could conceivably make less efficient (and paternalistic) forms of in-kind wealth transfers unnecessary Nobody said that this new form of wealth transfer will replace existing forms of wealth transfer. The goal here is that it would run in tandem with existing forms of redistribution. It is a delusion that it will ever be enough. Once UBI is in place, other forms of egalitarianism will soon follow unt…

[deleted]

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#99

Post by c0nducktr » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 3:13 PM UTC

_andromeda_ wrote: post #78

raleighm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeking in advance the idea that is right (or left) on the political spectrum is a bad approach, and anyway gets you nowhere in the face of an issue like basic income where heroes of the right and of the left disagree adamantly amongst themselves. If Friedman isn't "right" enough for you, how's Thomas Paine? See his pamphlet entitled "Agrarian Justice". Point is: there is no correct "right" or "left" or "capitalist"…

>a cash payment could conceivably make less efficient (and paternalistic) forms of in-kind wealth transfers unnecessary Nobody said that this new form of wealth transfer will replace existing forms of wealth transfer. The goal here is that it would run in tandem with existing forms of redistribution. It is a delusion that it will ever be enough. Once UBI is in place, other forms of egalitarianism will soon follow unt…

I find the transfer of wealth from workers to capitalists pretty atrocious myself.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#100

Post by _andromeda_ » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

labster wrote: post #97

_andromeda_ wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there are many a people even on the Forbes list who worked multiple jobs in the beginning. That did not stop them from achieving their goals and being in possession of abundant resources in the long run. Now please don't take that to mean that all people will be on a Forbes list. The point here is that you can start out doing multiple menial jobs but with discipline, hard work and a culture for savings, YO…

Wow, such naïevité. And such arrogance. Some people just have bad luck. They can do all the right things, but never get the break they need to succeed. Others are born women in cultures that will simply not allow them to succeed. People can work harder than you their entire lives, and make better choices than you, and still not be economically successful. This kind of self-righteousness from the lucky is so annoying.

>This kind of self-righteousness from the lucky is so annoying.

You are the one making a naive assumption here my friend. I've seen and been through worse things than you can imagine. I know scarcity. I've stared it in the face. But I also know that the best way out of a bad fiscal situation is to simply get off your ass and get some work done. Whatever kind of work. Just do it and apply principles of wealth creation such as compounding currently available resources however little and repeat as frequently as possible.

I would much rather provide indigents with tools and methods to do their own fishing as opposed to what you're doing; proposing to them that life is a lottery and your life is not in your hands. Can't you see you're being evil?! Why do you want someone to live off your peanuts as opposed to them applying themselves and living a dignified life based on their own sweat? I'm tired of this mindset and that's why I've decided to voice my concerns regarding this and similar initiatives.

I don't know your background but if I was a betting man I'd say, you're spoilt and you think that money grows on trees so it can be printed out and handed out to people who don't want to work or think. If you truly understood scarcity, you would ask deep questions about money and arrive at a simple conclusion; it is simply a representation of created value within a society and the moment you dilute it, you dilute the need to work, create future value and subsequently move civilization forward.