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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#551

Post by p94ka »

csomar wrote: post #469
empath75 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a contractor is going to be unbiased when they're getting paid by the corporation is sort of absurd. They know where their bread is buttered, and it's not from employees filing complaints.

The contractor is working for the company. He is unbiased toward the employees.

He's unbiased toward the employees, but he surely knows the company will be exposed to liability if one of their employees is found to have engaged in harassment, so the best outcome would be to say that no such harassment occurred.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#552

Post by tyingq »

foldr wrote: post #538
tyingq wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't understand what it would mean for you to "evaluate this for yourself". You have no way of independently verifying what's she's saying, quotes or no quotes. It is the difference, though, between accepting a conclusion, and seeing the path that led there. "This guy is incompetent because he writes insecure code" vs "He often wrote code that would allow untrusted input, of undetermined size, into a fixed size b…

I guess this is not getting through, but she's not submitting the article to you for you to evaluate. She's not obliged to tell you about any of this in the first place, and she can give as much or as little detail as she feels is appropriate. If you just don't trust her, then quotes would make no difference. If you are willing to believe her, then believe also that a woman is perfectly capable of figuring out when s…

Neither am I submitting comments for you to evaluate my motives. Nonetheless, it's happening.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#553

Post by [deleted] »

softawre wrote: post #310
smsowmya wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no quote because it was him being nicer to me than to the other men thought he should have been - it was actually him not treating me like a second class citizen. It was this "equal" status that made the others feel that I got better treatment. I made no remark about anything else because I do not wish to speculate about anyone else's intentions or motivations - and that is not relevant to the point of this…

What? You did actually say this: > One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism. He was treating you with respect and you think it was sexist? As a male manager of female employees, what am I even supposed to do?

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#554

Post by foldr »

mistermann wrote: post #542

Wowza, maybe they do have a problem. I'm not sure I agree with all of the complaints there but it does seem they have at least some genuine issues that should be addressed. Just being completely honest, this reinforces my general opinion to be very cautious around females, avoiding it where possible is probably a wise idea.

Being honest about your sexism doesn't make it any better.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#555

Post by qb45 »

softawre wrote: post #310
smsowmya wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no quote because it was him being nicer to me than to the other men thought he should have been - it was actually him not treating me like a second class citizen. It was this "equal" status that made the others feel that I got better treatment. I made no remark about anything else because I do not wish to speculate about anyone else's intentions or motivations - and that is not relevant to the point of this…

What? You did actually say this: > One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism. He was treating you with respect and you think it was sexist? As a male manager of female employees, what am I even supposed to do?

> what am I even supposed to do?

Extracting information from self-contradictory accounts is a bit of a black art, but this being said my guess is that he actually did something to deserve these labels just the OP isn't comfortable discussing it in detail. So calm down :)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#556

Post by stcredzero »

vertex-four wrote: post #541
stcredzero wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to steer me towards a fallacy like this? -- Both men and women are paid for work, therefore they are equal. Powerful men and not-powerful men receive very different treatment when they are subject to ideological questioning. Powerful men tend to be believed when they claim ideas and emotional states. Not-powerful men tend to be not-believed, or accused of lying. Sometimes, even surface signals can be s…

> Powerful men tend to be believed when they claim ideas and emotional states. Not-powerful men tend to be not-believed, or accused of lying. Interesting - I tend to see people in power believed far less than people without in the communities I'm in. I wonder if either I'm not seeing something, or I'm in a bubble and my communities are actually better than most. Do you have any specific examples as they apply to femi…

Interesting - I tend to see people in power believed far less than people without in the communities I'm in.

I bet you're talking about people on screens and in media, when you say "people in power." (Perhaps administrators in school, or people in charge of organizations?) I'm talking about the more powerful people in your community that you actually talk to and interact with regularly. Basically the people who are actually relevant in the context of your ape dominance hierarchy ladder. Talking crap about distant figureheads of power doesn't count.

EDIT: For example, when was the last time a poor white cis-hetero man tried to join in your group as a feminist, and how did it go for him?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#557

Post by vertex-four »

stcredzero wrote: post #556
vertex-four wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Powerful men tend to be believed when they claim ideas and emotional states. Not-powerful men tend to be not-believed, or accused of lying. Interesting - I tend to see people in power believed far less than people without in the communities I'm in. I wonder if either I'm not seeing something, or I'm in a bubble and my communities are actually better than most. Do you have any specific examples as they apply to femi…

Interesting - I tend to see people in power believed far less than people without in the communities I'm in. I bet you're talking about people on screens and in media, when you say "people in power." (Perhaps administrators in school, or people in charge of organizations?) I'm talking about the more powerful people in your community that you actually talk to and interact with regularly. Basically the people who are a…

I'm not. I'm talking about the same people you are, I think? I'd really like some explanation of who precisely we're supposedly letting down, as this level of abstraction is getting to a level where either of us could say anything without evidence.

EDIT: There's a handful of poor cis white hetero men in my specific feminist/SJ group. Their thing is mostly being pro-unionisation in a way that falls in nicely with the more socialist tendencies of modern feminism, or they're unemployable due to mental or physical disability and struggling with the abysmal benefits system and have come to disbelieve that society as it stands is ever going to fix that, or in one case he's blind, and we support them in their efforts and fold them into our own as best as we can. I can't vouch for the makeup of other groups.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#558

Post by mistermann »

foldr wrote: post #554
mistermann wrote: post #542

Wowza, maybe they do have a problem. I'm not sure I agree with all of the complaints there but it does seem they have at least some genuine issues that should be addressed. Just being completely honest, this reinforces my general opinion to be very cautious around females, avoiding it where possible is probably a wise idea.

Being honest about your sexism doesn't make it any better.

I dunno, to me it's more of a generational problem than a gender one, I'm just advocating keeping a safe distance from one of the most lethal weapons until society regains some sense of sanity.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#559

Post by yummyfajitas »

st3v3r wrote: post #535
yummyfajitas wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm perfectly happy with that "power imbalance", whatever that means. Why can't the union refuse to protect non-union workers against this "imbalance"? It sounds like the union needs special legally granted monopoly powers to sell me services I don't actually want. The term for that is "rent seeking", actually.

"It sounds like the union needs special legally granted monopoly powers to sell me services I don't actually want." To paraphrase the classic anti-union argument, "Nobody is forcing you to work somewhere with a compulsory union."

No one is forcing you to work at a company which colludes with competitors to avoid poaching each other's employees. No one forces you to purchase products from companies that form cartels.

However, we've decided as a matter of public policy that collusion of this sort harms consumers and workers.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#560

Post by digler999 »

mistermann wrote: post #542

Wowza, maybe they do have a problem. I'm not sure I agree with all of the complaints there but it does seem they have at least some genuine issues that should be addressed. Just being completely honest, this reinforces my general opinion to be very cautious around females, avoiding it where possible is probably a wise idea.

> to be very cautious around females,

cautious in what way ?

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