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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My original observation is the different treatment the powerful get from the not-powerful, even when the questioning is ideological. I don't think you've shown that the powerful get different treatment from the not-powerful. In fact, as far as I can tell, you've agreed that the powerful do come under criticism, just that they handle it better?

Are you trying to steer me towards a fallacy like this? -- Both men and women are paid for work, therefore they are equal. Powerful men and not-powerful men receive very different treatment when they are subject to ideological questioning. Powerful men tend to be believed when they claim ideas and emotional states. Not-powerful men tend to be not-believed, or accused of lying. Sometimes, even surface signals can be s…

> Powerful men tend to be believed when they claim ideas and emotional states. Not-powerful men tend to be not-believed, or accused of lying.

Interesting - I tend to see people in power believed far less than people without in the communities I'm in. I wonder if either I'm not seeing something, or I'm in a bubble and my communities are actually better than most.

Do you have any specific examples as they apply to feminist communities? I'd really like to find out whether I'm missing something.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#542
Wowza, maybe they do have a problem. I'm not sure I agree with all of the complaints there but it does seem they have at least some genuine issues that should be addressed.

Just being completely honest, this reinforces my general opinion to be very cautious around females, avoiding it where possible is probably a wise idea.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#543
post #428
post #148

I think commenters who are reacting negatively to this story are reacting to the vocabulary rather than the story. Obviously I'm not a witness, but I tend to believe that these events took place more or less as the author describes them. At the same time, words like "sexism" and phrases like "as a minority..." are a big turn-off to some readers, myself included. This isn't because I don't believe in racism/sexism/xen…

The vocabulary is absolutely flawed. These are very bold claims which need to be backed up with facts. For instance, the behavior is clearly spelled out here: One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism. OP explains how she felt and tells us exactly what action caused her to feel that way. However: The group started insinuating... They also made remarks implyin…

I would strongly argue that the by far most important thing is how the receiver interpreted the actions, though. Of course expanding on the actions themselves might help others understand better, but as far as I can understand, being met with scepticism for what you describe is part of what makes the experience so hopeless after bringing the courage to follow up on something uncomfortable.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#544
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

"Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" --> "I don't think there is one." No - the feminine of 'guy' is 'girl'. Point blank. "The guys/girls are in town this week" "Those guys/girls are from Facebook" This is very common and normal language.

Actually, it's gal. Point blank. Not used as often, because the diminutive term passes for an alternative among many.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that would be true if you think arguments are soldiers in favor of women or against them. You think I believe I raised a +1 for men, while you think I raised a +1 for women by mentioning a time they were victims. In fact, I believe arguments are attempts to converge to truth. The fact that women were victims in 1631 has no bearing on this discussion. RoderickDay made an argument that happened to be flawed (…

"This man did a sexist thing to curry favor with a woman. This other man did a sexist thing against her. Clearly, the woman must have been lying in one of the two scenarios." You're an idiot dude. Linking to a wikipedia fallacy page lmao you're like a caricature.

You can't make personal attacks like this here! We've already asked you not to do this. Please comment civilly and substantively or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal contract clauses tend to be non-enforceable. So you can sign and then ignore.

But the outcome of that depends largely on who's got the position they want. If a contract has an illegal non-compete, it's easy for an employee to sign and then ignore it. After all, the employer would have to find the violation, sue them, and risk summary dismissal. The employee wins just by having everyone give up. If a contract features unpaid overtime, though, the employee is working time and not getting paid. T…

While it's always an option to sue for payment of unpaid overtime after you left that will still leave a mark on your resume an people may be hesitant to hire. It's also lengthy and risky because it requires solid documentation. And, first of all it requires that you're aware that the clause is overreaching and thus null and void. I often see people not getting paid for time worked because they're unaware. I also fairly often hear about uncompensated non-compete clauses which are also illegal, but people are scared to go see a lawyer. A good union provides both: a check on the contracts in a company and legal advice and professional backing in court when needed.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal contract clauses tend to be non-enforceable. So you can sign and then ignore.

But the outcome of that depends largely on who's got the position they want. If a contract has an illegal non-compete, it's easy for an employee to sign and then ignore it. After all, the employer would have to find the violation, sue them, and risk summary dismissal. The employee wins just by having everyone give up. If a contract features unpaid overtime, though, the employee is working time and not getting paid. T…

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#548
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure if you're saying "toughen up" is never the answer, or "firing" is never the answer. Assuming the former: It is entirely possible to misinterpret friendly ribbing or banter as something far more malicious. To assume the worst of someone who genuinely means no harm, and to suggest they should be punished, censored, and shunned. "Toughen up" is perhaps not quite the right phrasing here: It's asking…

"Toughen up" is never the answer. "It is entirely possible to misinterpret friendly ribbing or banter as something far more malicious. " This is still entirely the fault of the one who mistakes ribbing for actual team building. "To assume the worst of someone who genuinely means no harm, and to suggest they should be punished, censored, and shunned." Telling them to knock it off is NOT censoring. "Where, perhaps, sim…

> This is still entirely the fault of the one who mistakes ribbing for actual team building.

When two people agree that they're engaging in friendly banter with/against each other, and an unrelated third party freaks out with their own misinterpretation of the situation, is it still the people engaging in banter who are to blame? Because I've seen this.

And what about the person who cannot handle having their code reviewed - no matter how softly and kindly the reviewer attempts to approach the topic? Despite making it very clear that minor suggestions for further improvements aren't some kind of slanderous attack against one's personal character?

Look: We agree sometimes someone's just being a dick, even if they weren't intentionally malicious about it, and it's their fault and they need to change their behavior. But it does not follow that absolutely every bit of miscommunication is completely and utterly the fault of the person attempting to convey something. If I misremember the meaning of a word, that's on me. If I willfully twist and misinterpret someone's words, that's on me. If I mistakenly do so, when the other party has communicated quite clearly and in good will? That's still on me. Communication requires the effort of two parties, and completely absolving one of them from any roll in doing so successfully isn't reasonable or helpful.

If I have a habit of ascribing malice where there is none - in an ideal world, someone sits down and we have a conversation where they can successfully convey that, no, pointing out a typo in a doc comment isn't a personal attack on my character, we all make the same mistakes, we're just trying to help each other out and get more stuff done better as a team - they mean to offer me a hand up, rather than to put me down. I'd call this a long winded way of saying: "toughen up." What would you call it, instead? Or do you even agree with me that this conversation should happen? Surely we shouldn't just fire the person giving me a code review, because of my own hangups and hypersensitivities?

> Telling them to knock it off is NOT censoring.

Which is why I suggested it.

On the other hand, we see calls to disinvite people from conferences, ban their social media accounts, fire them, to 'dox' them and harass them off the internet entirely for perceived transgressions. These, perhaps, are attempts at censorship. This I suggest against.

> Because no one has ever faced retaliation for doing just this. No one, upon hearing this from a co-worker, has never ratcheted up the "friendly ribbing".

At which point, you've moved from assumptions of malice to evidence. Yes, there are assholes out there. It sucks. We should try to do something about it. "Doing something about it" should not be pretaliation based on thin assumptions, being an asshole before they can be an asshole.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#549

Wouldn't Apple's hiring policy likely mean that she was given the job on the basis of her race and gender? They have to be doing that in order to achieve the diversity numbers they're so happy to publish each year.

Users may have flagged this comment because you made a very controversial claim without any support. On Hacker News, the bar for substantiveness is higher in this situation because the site exists for civil, intellectually interesting discussion, and predictable flamewars are precisely opposite.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#550
post #430
post #159

There is a mental trap I have personally fallen into I will dub the "Friendliness Trap" where you start to incorrectly think of someone you work closely with as your close friend due to the forced proximity and "friendly" interaction. This can foster inappropriate workplace behavior your brain justifies as OK. For instance friendly teasing, sometimes even started by the person themselves (e.g. "Oh, you know us [blank…

I'd add : why do you need to tease in the first place ? There's no reason to do that.

Teasing is a social thing. And like other social things the reasons are not necessarily concrete and "rational". Why do you smile and say hello to a person you pass in the hall? You don't intend to start a conversion- there's no reason to say hello. There's no "reason" to be friendly at all.

If you look at the social and emotional things happening, maybe it starts to make some sense. Smiling says, "Hi, I recognize you and you are an acquaintance/friend."

Teasing is a way of interacting- of making bonds, of feeling people out. By teasing, you are finding out about someone: How much do they care about the subject of teasing? What kind of person are they? And you are saying, "I know you so I can playfully poke at things you care about." And maybe eventually, "I know you so well, I can poke at you in a sensitive area but not go too far. We can do that to each other because we trust each other's intent and we know how to poke in a way that doesn't go too far." Strangers don't have that kind of bond and trust.

Besides that, teasing is joking. It can be simply harmless and funny and lightens the mood or improve the morale of a group.

So, yes, there are reasons.

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