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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#261

Post by sleepybrett »

edblarney wrote: post #236
wpietri wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello! Guy here. One, those terms are not interchangeable. Words have meanings. Two, people will refer to themselves or people in their in-group by names that people in the outgroup should not call them. E.g., my friend runs a get-together called "nerd beers". I don't mind, because he is a fellow lover of technology. Other people do not get to call me a nerd. Many groups have similar patterns, including black and gay…

No. Wrong. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy'. But it is also the feminine of 'Guy'. Examples: + "Hey guys, there's a problem, let's huddle on this" + "Me and the guys are going out for lunch, you in?" + "That guy is loco!" You would never say: + "Hey men, there's a problem, let's huddle" etc.. And neither: + "Hey women, there's an issue, let's huddle" + "Me and the women are going out for lunch" No. You would reasonabl…

No, you should say "Hey ladies, there's an issue, let's huddle"

You are welcome to call them girls if they are children. It might also be appropriate outside of a professional context to address a group of women you are close with, but I can't ever see a reason to use the word girls in a professional setting to refer to female coworkers. It's belittling and disrespectful.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#262

Post by beachstartup »

sanderjd wrote: post #241
edblarney wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespectful.

the more language- and thought-policing you try to push, the more of a right-wing backlash (i.e. trump) you will see from the public at large.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#263

Post by Broken_Hippo »

geoka9 wrote: post #219
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

Not the op, but female as well.

Guy is a general term most times, but I've known a few women that get offended by it because they aren't male.

Dude is also used for both, but a lot of folks don't want to use that in the office. Alternatively, just use person and be safe.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#264

Post by reitoei »

thr55993 wrote: post #47

Is not this the default situation white straight male faces? For example I was accused of somehow being responsible for slavery, LGBT discrimination, anti-immigrant policies etc.. That was just a few days after I moved to US, I had zero influence on those things and I was immigrant myself. And my coworkers made racist jokes about Russia.

> And my coworkers made racist jokes about Russia.

Xenophobic jokes.

Russia is not a race.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#265

Post by Bartweiss »

mpweiher wrote: post #166
Xylakant wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unions and work councils are fairly rare in the IT/startup sector in Germany. If they exist it's usually because it's the IT department of an old, established enterprise. The rate of union membership in anything that's IT related is comparatively low as well. Personally, I consider that a problem, because it leaves each employee to fight their own fight. But IT folks somehow tend to believe that they don't need any h…

Illegal contract clauses tend to be non-enforceable. So you can sign and then ignore.

But the outcome of that depends largely on who's got the position they want.

If a contract has an illegal non-compete, it's easy for an employee to sign and then ignore it. After all, the employer would have to find the violation, sue them, and risk summary dismissal. The employee wins just by having everyone give up.

If a contract features unpaid overtime, though, the employee is working time and not getting paid. They can refuse the work, get fired, and then sue, or they can do the work and then sue for nonpayment. In either case, they need to win to come out ahead, which is a lengthy and uncertain process.

Ignoring unenforceable provisions is only easy for someone who doesn't need a court decision to get a good outcome.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#266

Post by yodon »

edblarney wrote: post #236
wpietri wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello! Guy here. One, those terms are not interchangeable. Words have meanings. Two, people will refer to themselves or people in their in-group by names that people in the outgroup should not call them. E.g., my friend runs a get-together called "nerd beers". I don't mind, because he is a fellow lover of technology. Other people do not get to call me a nerd. Many groups have similar patterns, including black and gay…

No. Wrong. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy'. But it is also the feminine of 'Guy'. Examples: + "Hey guys, there's a problem, let's huddle on this" + "Me and the guys are going out for lunch, you in?" + "That guy is loco!" You would never say: + "Hey men, there's a problem, let's huddle" etc.. And neither: + "Hey women, there's an issue, let's huddle" + "Me and the women are going out for lunch" No. You would reasonabl…

Actually, what the responders above are saying is no, they wouldnt. You are saying that you would. A great many other people are telling you the norms you have internalized are quite different from the norms they internalized.

Verbal norms change over time, just as other forms of norms change. You don't have to modify your norms to keep up with how the rest of society views those norms, but where they impact legal decisions your personal choice to reject the change in external norms may have a significant cost to you at some point.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#267

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

edblarney wrote: post #250
edblarney wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

"This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespect" You might want to consider that you live in a bubble - and that your finger wagging is condescending. 'Girl…

Boy, you're wrong.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#268

Post by AlexB138 »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #168
AlexB138 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does? The necessity that you should actually show something is occurring before a company destroys someone's reputation and livelihood? Reality is that people lie. Do you genuinely believe that an accusation should be taken as 100% truth simply on one person's word? Do you not see how easily that become a weapon? Even reprimanding a person, when there's no proof they've done anything wrong, establishes a bias ag…

Why can't a formal investigation happen anyways in an anonymous fashion? It takes the concerns seriously and also doesn't automatically assume I'll intent on either side. I don't see the point in dismissing op and assuming someone accused of harassment is the first person that needs protection and support over people who are concerned they are being harassed to the point they make complaints about it...

An anonymous formal investigation absolutely should happen. The OP seems to arguing that you shouldn't even question someone who claims they are being harassed, and that is what I take exception with. Both people in the situation should be treated as innocent until there is proof otherwise.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#269

Post by wccrawford »

Bartweiss wrote: post #226
Humdeee wrote: post #187

If I was back at the start of my career, I would of dismissed this article and told the author to "toughen up". After all, what's a bit of ribbing among co-workers? Surely she's just being overly-sensitive. Until I had the (mis)pleasure of working with a truly toxic co-worker did my mindset completely change on the issue of bullying, intimidation, and hostility in the workplace. He was a senior guy, decent at his job…

Honestly, I think many of the dismissive reactions to these things have a similar basis. It can look like people excusing this behavior, but I think in many cases they've just never seen this behavior. If the worst you've seen at work is friendly teasing and maybe some racy language, it's easy to assume that's what happened and someone is overreacting. If you've seen someone truly corrosive, that assumption changes.…

I think part of the problem is that it's hard (or impossible) to tell how much someone is exaggerating on the internet. Sometimes the answer really is "toughen up" because what they're experiencing is really nothing. Other times, it really is a horrible situation and people should be fired for it.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#270

Post by beachstartup »

kalleboo wrote: post #26

> No one at the company took responsibility for anything other than protecting the company’s liability in case of a lawsuit The tech industry absolutely doesn't need unions /s

NO. NO NO NO.

the tech industry does NOT need a union.

what could hypothetically be argued is the need for the equivalent of the medical board, or bar, or cpa, cfa, engineering license, etc. and it would be a legitimate debate, but no clear cut answer exists.

you'll note that all of those bodies have ethics and competency standards and none of them are unions, meaning none of them negotiate contracts on behalf of their constituent members.

i DO NOT (DO _NOT_) want a union negotiating my business relationships for me, and exclude me from my own industry if i refuse to let them.

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