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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#511

Very well put. I find it very annoying when people declare something to be racist. Racism is the idea that some races are superior or inferior. Unless you literally declare that some races are superior or inferior, what you say is not racist. I do agree that some things might imply that you think some races are inferior, but by declaring something racist, you state that the author has that specific idea and is trying…

What word would you prefer? How would you describe the comment "Black people eat a lot of chicken"? Also, FYI, most (all?) dictionaries disagree with you on the definition of racism. > the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

This kind of broad definition I find fairly incoherent, because it mixes an emotionally neutral situation(e.g. "black people eat a lot of chicken", which requires context to get any positivity or negativity from) with very emotionally charged situations("especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"). It's the difference between "the japanese eat a lot of fish, which is peculiar" - a very natural determination for humans to make, owing to our base pattern matching capabilities and curiosity, and "the japanese untermensch feed on garbage from the sea", which is an emotionally charged condemnation of the nationality.

Mixing definitions this way allows activists to declare almost everything racist, which people immediately associate with the worst possible situation. This gives them power over conversations via a motte and bailey tactic - they will demand that their opponents and critics are racist, invoking terrible imagery in neutral observers; once the critics question this, they will retreat to their motte, qualifying their statements were just following the dictionary definition; when the critics are no longer there to rebut the statement, they will dive back to the bailey of claiming "racism" without the qualifications evoked.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no quote that can translate that context well. And it was sexist, perhaps even meant to be complimentary and not necessary. But it was not evil. What he did was not the point. The point is what followed and how it was handled. And every employee has more than one supervisor. I feel like you are totally missing why I wrote this piece by focusing on one sentence.

Please don't take this as confrontational, but maybe there is a point that you are missing, that maybe you have made an error in your assessment of what happened, of what people's actual motives are. I genuinely feel like you are unnecessarily secretive about the details of this. Of course there often are details that must be kept secret for various reasons, but my intuition is suggesting otherwise. Personally, I don…

A claim of sexism at a tech company is not in any way "extraordinary".

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#513
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it was him being nicer to me than to the other men thought he should have been - it was actually him not treating me like a second class citizen That sounds like you're saying the supervisor didn't do anything wrong, but rather that your coworkers took a reasonable gesture the wrong way? If so, that doesn't really jive with "One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display o…

There is no quote that can translate that context well. And it was sexist, perhaps even meant to be complimentary and not necessary. But it was not evil. What he did was not the point. The point is what followed and how it was handled. And every employee has more than one supervisor. I feel like you are totally missing why I wrote this piece by focusing on one sentence.

> What he did was not the point.

But the way you talk about him totally is. You shouldn't defend people who give you undeserved favors at the cost of others, if this is what he did. And you absolutely shouldn't be surprised by the consequences, if you do.

Your coworkers may have felt equally threatened by this supervisor as you did by them. Associating yourself with people like him will do you no good.

> I feel like you are totally missing why I wrote this piece by focusing on one sentence.

No doubt. People have their own agendas to play, not everybody will support yours.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goes back to familiarity. I'd be comfortable saying girls to one of the social/professional groups in my office that's all women. But I know them. I wouldn't do that with women I didn't know. Our travel office is all women. I don't call them "the girls in the travel office" because I don't know them (in a familiar way). I use guy a bit more often despite unfamiliarity, but it's not a diminutive like girl is though it…

Real question - is "ladies" considered offensive these days? Disclaimer: I'm probably older than the average HN'er so I'm used to using woman/lady interchangeably in casual usage, and now I'm wondering how out of date I am.

In my experience, I've gotten some flack for "lady" directed at an individual woman, but not for "ladies" directed at a group. The former seems to be a regional and agewise thing, not a universal thing.

EDIT: Thought about this on my drive home. I think a lot of this has to do with intonation and context. "Hey, lady!" can be taken many ways depending on how you say it. "Alright lady, let's start this meeting." would be an awkward expression, even if 99.99% of the world takes it as totally inoccuous. Versus "ladies" which is easier to use, as in "Alright ladies, let's get started." without any odd implications by tone or inflection.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't think it's racially stereotypical, so no. As far as I know, the stereotype came from the southern USA, is that not correct? You call it semantics, I call it calling bullshit on moral busybodies who think they are bringing people together when actually they're driving them further apart. Do you watch much stand up comedy?

I watch some. How could that not be racially stereotypical? It's clearly a stereotype, as you said yourself, and it's clearly applied to an entire race. I'm not sure I could think of a better example of a racial stereotype. You can argue over whether or not it's offensive, but that's not what I'm asking.

It's culturally stereotypical, not racially stereotypical.

> it's clearly applied to an entire race

Clearly? How so?

You likely think I am playing a game of semantics, but I genuinely think if we keep playing this game of trying to find reasons to be victims, things will never get better, even if that is what all parties want!

The reason I brought up comedians is because they seem to allow normal people a view into this world, where we can admit that black people in the south eat a lot of fried chicken. Know why? Because it's cheap, and delicious!

Do some racist rednecks still say things like that with an intent to cause harm? Yes, and what should we do? Laugh at them for using such an old, tired, irrelevant, pathetic joke of an attack. Because really, it's really nothing more than that, the rest of "what's there" is often purely in our minds.

We're telling helpless teenagers that don't know any better over and over that a huge portion of the population hate them because of their race, and it is simply not true! We seem determined as a society that racism lives on forever, and it is really unfortunate.

For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIgSQDQC0qc

What should New Zealander's do here, fire up the navy for a show of force off the coast of Sydney? Or should they crack a smile and say "good on ya mate"? Will we forever think of people who have a different color of skin than us...or actually, to be more precise, that have non-white skin, because that's what it's really about, isn't it, thinking that people who are non-white are "different" and must be handled with extreme caution. I reject that completely.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#516
post #430
post #159

There is a mental trap I have personally fallen into I will dub the "Friendliness Trap" where you start to incorrectly think of someone you work closely with as your close friend due to the forced proximity and "friendly" interaction. This can foster inappropriate workplace behavior your brain justifies as OK. For instance friendly teasing, sometimes even started by the person themselves (e.g. "Oh, you know us [blank…

I'd add : why do you need to tease in the first place ? There's no reason to do that.

I do think teasing, especially in cis male friendships, is very often a big piece of the bonding experience. It simply doesn't translate well to the work environment and should be left out.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#517
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's never the answer. Why is it that it's ok to not treat some people with basic human dignity and respect?

I'm not entirely sure if you're saying "toughen up" is never the answer, or "firing" is never the answer. Assuming the former: It is entirely possible to misinterpret friendly ribbing or banter as something far more malicious. To assume the worst of someone who genuinely means no harm, and to suggest they should be punished, censored, and shunned. "Toughen up" is perhaps not quite the right phrasing here: It's asking…

To add further to the former category: appropriate friendly ribbing or banter definitely fall under the category of basic human dignity or respect.

People cry at weddings. Not because they are sad, but because they are happy (usually). Why cry when you're happy? Studies[1] suggest that crying lowers your defenses. Similar to how salutes and handshakes were ways of demonstrating you weren't armed, you form a lot of social bonds when you are comfortable enough to be defenseless.

Friendly banter is exactly that, on an emotional level. Sure, crying may make me physically less defended, but allowing some friendly coworker banter makes me emotionally less defended. This encourages bonding. it's the difference between laughing at and laughing with.

Targeting someone maliciously is never acceptable. But friendly banter is sometimes not acceptable. Different people have different tolerances. Calling someone a fat worthless piece of garbage. Probably not ok. saying "geez, another donut?" to a coworker may trigger a group laughter (the subject included: "I start my diet tomorrow, i swear!") or it may cause a reaction the exact same way calling them a worthless piece of garbage might. Discussing their weight might make them feel vulnerable in a bonding sort of way, or in a targeted sort of way, you really should know a person before making those kind of comments though.

I had a young colleague who quit recently. He missed our weekly developer meeting (because he was new, and forgot) and when we got back, another colleague said "Yeah, since you weren't at the meeting, we spent the whole time talking about you" in a clearly joking way, trying to include the new guy in the banter. In fact, he said it to 3 different people who missed the meeting (man, a lot of people missed the meeting that week). The guy demanded he not be a part of the "bro culture" and wanted to work remotely full time. The counter was remote 3 days a week, in office 2, and his desk could be on the opposite side of the building. He rejected that. If you were there, it was apparent that he wasn't being bullied. he had moved across the state for a job and was looking for any way to be able to move back home while keeping the job. His goal was not to get dignity and respect, his goal was to get his way. If he wanted dignity and respect (and honestly thought we spent a whole meeting talking about him behind his back), then any of the concessions offered to him should have worked. Everyone on the team tried to include this guy. Treating him with kid gloves really was kinda more segregating than a toxic individual (when its better to just not talk to someone about real problems than risk upsetting them, that's an issue too). The other guys who missed the meeting looked at the clock, said a profanity, then laughed about it.

[1]: http://www.livescience.com/7854-theory-cry.html - "Crying is a highly evolved behavior," said researcher Oren Hasson, an evolutionary biologist at Tel Aviv University in Israel. "My analysis suggests that by blurring vision, tears lower defenses and reliably function as signals of submission, a cry for help, and even in a mutual display of attachment and as a group display of cohesion."

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#518
post #502

> I don't believe you can prove anything Go do some math proofs and report back

Math proofs rely on arbitrarily chosen axioms; tps5 describes a similarly arbitrary approach to reasoning, e.g.: > Someone might say "I know she is lying because she used this term which liars always use plus I read this story about a woman making up harassment charges to elicit sympathy." Using a mathematical approach, maybe they started from an axiom that liars use specific terms which out them as such. Then after…

Meant that as a joke, mate. Humor isn't known for traveling well on the web.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#519
post #508
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except its almost never teasing, its bullying. I learned the difference between teasing someone and bullying in elementary school, directly via the education system (ie. the teacher). Repeated 'joke' on/about the same subject? Bullying. Is it mutual fun between/with different subjects, and can the subject themselves laugh about the joke? Teasing. Telling someone to 'shape up' after they heard a joke regarding their r…

I would argue that if the repeated joke is agreed upon by all involved, it doesn't have to be bullying. Friends have inside jokes that only they enjoy and get repeated constantly. Why can't an inside joke be about someone? I'm the worst dresser on my team and i commonly (not daily, but monthly) get "hey nice clothes!" comments. We all laugh and move on. if the comments bothered me, i could say something, or dress lik…

> I would argue that if the repeated joke is agreed upon by all involved, it doesn't have to be bullying.

True, and this can occur on work, but by default it does not. See my comment hereunder on the different social rings.

There is also the argument that one needs to accept criticism, or "take some flak". People take much better criticism 1 on 1. So if your boss finds that you clothe yourself badly he could address that during a meeting. Another way is by addressing a whole group without mentioning individuals. I suppose at a small company the likelihood you're on close terms with your direct superior is higher, making a situation where a boss just casually mentions your clothing style more fitting.

> If someone can't tell that the subject isn't involved, the problem isn't their bullying/teasing, it's the fact that the person is a jerk.

I'd say a bully is a jerk (and very likely, worse, suffering from personality disorder(s)), but also there is the autism spectrum which meddles with the point you make. A normal person learns this in their childhood but there are people who simply lack the social skills to read their joke is inappropriate. Although even then, it is a spectrum, not a binary 0/1.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take this as confrontational, but maybe there is a point that you are missing, that maybe you have made an error in your assessment of what happened, of what people's actual motives are. I genuinely feel like you are unnecessarily secretive about the details of this. Of course there often are details that must be kept secret for various reasons, but my intuition is suggesting otherwise. Personally, I don…

A claim of sexism at a tech company is not in any way "extraordinary".

Oh, does this sort of thing happen routinely at Apple? I hadn't read that, could you provide your source?
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