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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#251

Post by Bartweiss »

wpietri wrote: post #205
chmike wrote: post #132

My brother, as a manager of a big team in Belgium, had once to face a complain to the HR about he harassing a secretary. The reaction of the company was immediate, and in my opinion the right one. They contracted a specialize company to investigate, collect the facts and present their conclusions. The conclusions would be sent at the same time to the alleged victim, the HR and the manager. In this case the conclusion…

I think that is a good start, but we should be aware of the flaws in an approach like this. I had friends at a company with serious security breach. There was a hullabaloo, all sort of important people in the company upset and questioning whether they should fire the head of tech. To calm the waters, the head of finance hired an outside firm to investigate. All good, right? Here, the head of finance liked the head of…

It seems like bond rating services here are an obvious point of comparison. They got paid to rate bonds, which meant they got paid by people with a strong desire for certain ratings, which meant that they "competed" not on price but on laxity of ratings. Most of us know how that one played out ~8 year ago.

Independent investigation is great, but you're right to observe that "outside" is not necessarily "independent". I suppose there are a few solutions to that: you could break the financial link (in the bond case, get consumers or the government to pay raters), or you could establish a culture where inaccurate results destroy reputation.

I'm sure there are auditors who do objective work for the people paying them simply because they value being known as reliable (and who are hired because the auditee wants a result people will trust). Without some precedent, we probably shouldn't assume that rosy case is happening.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#252

Post by edblarney »

geoka9 wrote: post #219
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

"Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy"

--> "I don't think there is one."

No - the feminine of 'guy' is 'girl'. Point blank.

"The guys/girls are in town this week"

"Those guys/girls are from Facebook"

This is very common and normal language.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#253

Post by edblarney »

geoka9 wrote: post #219
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

"Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy"

--> "I don't think there is one."

No - the feminine of 'guy' is 'girl'. Point blank.

"The guys/girls are in town this week"

"Those guys/girls are from Facebook"

This is very common and normal language.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#254

Post by tyingq »

tps5 wrote: post #148

I think commenters who are reacting negatively to this story are reacting to the vocabulary rather than the story. Obviously I'm not a witness, but I tend to believe that these events took place more or less as the author describes them. At the same time, words like "sexism" and phrases like "as a minority..." are a big turn-off to some readers, myself included. This isn't because I don't believe in racism/sexism/xen…

Very well said. This was my reaction, and in other comments here my objections along these lines are being interpreted as malicious and/or victim blaming. I do really want to understand versus being told how to feel about it.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#255

Post by kutkloon7 »

Very well put. I find it very annoying when people declare something to be racist. Racism is the idea that some races are superior or inferior. Unless you literally declare that some races are superior or inferior, what you say is not racist. I do agree that some things might imply that you think some races are inferior, but by declaring something racist, you state that the author has that specific idea and is trying to convey it.

However, people usually see any non-positive comment about a cultural minority as racist (e.g. "Black people eat a lot of chicken.").

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#256

Post by edblarney »

mikestew wrote: post #215
verroq wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women, girls and ladies are used interchangeably to refer to females. Grown women will also refer each other girls. To read such a common usage as misogyny is idiotic.

Grown women will also refer each other girls. I've heard a similar argument before, in reference to race. The logic is equally weak when crusty old white bigots use it.

"The logic is equally weak when crusty old white bigots use it."

This comment is racist and bigoted.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#257

Post by Jtsummers »

geoka9 wrote: post #219
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

Goes back to familiarity. I'd be comfortable saying girls to one of the social/professional groups in my office that's all women. But I know them. I wouldn't do that with women I didn't know. Our travel office is all women. I don't call them "the girls in the travel office" because I don't know them (in a familiar way). I use guy a bit more often despite unfamiliarity, but it's not a diminutive like girl is though it is casual.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#258

Post by witty_username »

Chestofdraw wrote: post #202
witty_username wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember from a "Free To Choose" video that due to unions there was a huge amount of bureaucracy taking months to fire one worker in the government. Anyways, that's just another anecdote, what are the historical facts?

Unions have fought for and won such a huge amount of the workers rights we enjoy today that it would be a disservice to try and cover all of them in a comment. Google is your friend if you'd like to learn about the history of unions and labour movements.

OK, I tried searching "worker rights due to union" and "union worker rights" and only found pages about unions protecting the right to associate. What should I input into Google?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#259

Post by lostboys67 »

kriro wrote: post #60

While not the perfect solution it seems like a lot of the mentioned issues (standardized communication channels, no conflict of interest) could be solved by installing work councils (I take it they are not wide spread in the US? They are standard in Germany): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_council

Day today discipline and grievances are not handled at the works council level that would be done at the branch level.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#260

Post by unethical_ban »

edblarney wrote: post #211
whichdan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone trying to define how harassment should be dealt with, you're certainly keen on dismissively calling women "girls".

I'm not sure I agree. I often call people quite my junior 'boys' and 'girls'. I work with a startup of dudes under 24. I call them 'lads'. I could technically be their father. Is that wrong? No. Neither is using the term Mrs. Ms. or Miss.. In far-left socialist Montreal, where women are not even allowed by law to take their husband's name - people use the French equivalent everywhere: 'Madame' and 'Mademoiselle'. Sam…

I'll throw my hat in: using girl in the general form during an impersonal discussion (such as anything related to facts, debates, etc.) should be discouraged. It sounds as out of place as saying "boys" to refer to men. Your argument that "girl" is the same as "guy" applies in friendly terms and informal conversation, like the examples you provided.
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