Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective • Hacker News Board

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#131

Post by fatdog » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:45 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #106

fatdog wrote: post #98

How is women dealing with harassment different than men dealing with other men who are just assholes? I've been in a number of companies where I've had to call out the behavior of a colleague with a manager because the alternative would have been knocking the guys teeth out. Nothing changes, except maybe a "talking to" by a manager or HR, and said asshole just presses against a different boundary. I have also found t…

> How is women dealing with harassment different than men dealing with other men who are just assholes? In general, white men get their work attacked, women/minorities get their identity attacked, that's the difference.

Maybe they just take it more personally when they have chosen to victimize their identity?

A lot of white guys in startups recognize racial nepotism and can't call it out, so instead they go and start their own companies, or get politically isolated, quit, and go somewhere else. Maybe some of them vent frustrations on extreme subreddits and vote trump, but they aren't going to HR or the news over it.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#132

Post by chmike » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

My brother, as a manager of a big team in Belgium, had once to face a complain to the HR about he harassing a secretary. The reaction of the company was immediate, and in my opinion the right one.

They contracted a specialize company to investigate, collect the facts and present their conclusions. The conclusions would be sent at the same time to the alleged victim, the HR and the manager.

In this case the conclusion was that there was no harassment according to legal definition. These argumented conclusions would have been presented to a trial as reference if any party would want to contest them.

The company performing the audit is specialized in it. So they can recognize a real harassment from an abusive claim. They also have no interest in the company. It is in the interest of the company to call them to get a leverage to apply whatever measure they would find appropriate. If the victim is an employee, and he/she would consider the reaction inappropriate and abusive, he/she could complain to a tribunal.

Today, a company that is not reacting like that (diligent an investigation by an independent party) to a harassment complain would be considered a priori suspect or would be consider to have failed complying to its duty because it is their responsibility to do so.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#133

Post by module0000 » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

> I also eventually received an apology from the company and got time off to deal with my stress.

I'm not sure how I feel(as an AAPL shareholder) about this. I invest in the company, and they are spending(albeit a tiny portion in the grand scheme of things) my money to pay you...so you can deal with your stress? Really? I understand bereavement leave, sick leave, and FMLA....but stress? What happened to businesses existing to do business, not give out warm and fuzzy vibes?

Maybe I'm jaded, but my last jobs were the military, more military, contracting for the military, and ending with military(all in IT). Stress happens, but I didn't let my team down by bowing out from stress, and "disgust" sums up how I feel reading about others doing it.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#134

Post by dominotw » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #26

> No one at the company took responsibility for anything other than protecting the company’s liability in case of a lawsuit The tech industry absolutely doesn't need unions /s

no because people can quit and losing good people is a liability for any company. I am assuming that she continues to work there despite being treated poorly is due to immigration issues which make it impossible to switch jobs. We need to end immigration bonded slavery.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#135

Post by Asooka » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

csydas wrote: post #99

sqldba wrote: post #71

> I was getting preferential treatment because of my “cuteness factor” > Indian women being subservient I agree that these comments don't belong in the workplace. I have seen similar ones lead to people fired on the day and escorted to the door. Thankfully it's relatively rare but some places do take it very seriously. Apple was wrong. In Australia the law is clear and they've breached it. Take them to court and get…

> And this line stood out at me as being divorced from reality especially at a big company. I get it that we mostly want companies to be like this but I think it's also obvious that they're not. They are primarily profit motivated and we're lucky if they don't pollute the environment or commit atrocities in the process. You can look for smaller companies that do it, you can put it in your own company, but if you real…

Sadly, if the company isn't profit-motivated, it will be displaced by a profit-motivated one. At this point large companies are eerily similar to the hypothetical paperclip-maximizing AI that converts the entire earth in paperclips. Except that making more money lets you make even more money in a snowball effect.

The fix is probably to check glassdoor etc. as much as you can before working for a potentially unethical company. But then you'll be restricted to working for only a small handful of companies.

The other fix is to only work as a contractor, so you're isolated from the effects of being practically a serf to a company entity.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#136

Post by riskneural » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

module0000 wrote: post #133

> I also eventually received an apology from the company and got time off to deal with my stress. I'm not sure how I feel(as an AAPL shareholder) about this. I invest in the company, and they are spending(albeit a tiny portion in the grand scheme of things) my money to pay you...so you can deal with your stress? Really? I understand bereavement leave, sick leave, and FMLA....but stress? What happened to businesses ex…

This is where the EU view of a company having its customers, its shareholders, and its employees as stakeholders all having rights makes a difference. If your view is shareholder primacy, that only the shareholder matters, then you end up with a very different system.

Do we really all need to live as if we were in the military? Don't people go to war so others can live in peace?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#137

Post by FilterSweep » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

> I had never before encountered this kind of visceral hatred

This comment rang some bells for me. Have a friend from the Netherlands who was in undergrad with me, and one day in confidence he told me one of the things he didn't understand most in America is how someone can harbor, and actively maintain, such a passionate hatred for someone they aren't intimately involved with.

While this hatred is most definitely present in other first world nations, I can't avoid the fact that he is correct and far more pervasive in America. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#138

Post by AlexB138 » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

smsowmya wrote: post #56

AlexB138 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually, it's not. You're accusing someone of something very serious that puts their livelihood at stake. You need to have proof in that situation. It's a very intense and emotional experience, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to automatically assume the alleged victim is being honest.

And that's what makes victims think 100 times before making a formal allegation .. and why most don't report it.

What does? The necessity that you should actually show something is occurring before a company destroys someone's reputation and livelihood? Reality is that people lie. Do you genuinely believe that an accusation should be taken as 100% truth simply on one person's word? Do you not see how easily that become a weapon? Even reprimanding a person, when there's no proof they've done anything wrong, establishes a bias against them. That's a great way to alienate an employee who may have done nothing wrong, not to mention opening the thread of legal repercussion.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#139

Post by fatdog » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

karlmdavis wrote: post #108

fatdog wrote: post #98

How is women dealing with harassment different than men dealing with other men who are just assholes? I've been in a number of companies where I've had to call out the behavior of a colleague with a manager because the alternative would have been knocking the guys teeth out. Nothing changes, except maybe a "talking to" by a manager or HR, and said asshole just presses against a different boundary. I have also found t…

Because of the power differential? In the same way that it's different for a short man dealing with harassment from a tall man, or an average man dealing with harassment from a gymbro.

Where is the line between assertiveness in an environment where people are so-called "equals," and harassment? People (men, women, etc) use leverage to achieve their goals, and most managers in tech aren't equipped to resolve power dynamics.

Most of what guys do to each other to get leverage when they are "equals" would be considered harassment by a gentler temperament.

There is a counter narrative to the progressive political one that has some valid questions.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#140

Post by codazoda » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

PerilousD wrote: post #100

HR works for the company. When you consider your moves keep in mind HR works for the company. You are not paying HR salaries. Get outside legal help and advice.

Came here looking for this comment...

"I approached my management when the situation escalated, who directed me to HR. Instead of helping me, HR embarked on a defensive and confrontational script. I felt cornered, unsafe and unsure of what to do next."

It's HR's job to mitigate the risk to the company. They are not your friend, they are there to save the company from harm.