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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#91

Post by agentgt »

This is a serious problem.

My concern is people seem to think it only happens in previously (and still) male dominated fields. It happens everywhere.

I think the woman that voice their concerns and challenges are more abundant in the tech industry probably because the industry is more progressive and generally more educated.

Where I have seen ultra sexism has been in sales and finance. Extremely disturbing in your face sexism. Anecdotally the sexism in tech is sort of passive aggressive but the sexism in other industries is disturbingly direct (one could argue the subtle one being worse). My point is it is everywhere.

I hope the tech industry fixes it and becomes the leader.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#92

Post by yummyfajitas »

rmxt wrote: post #86
yummyfajitas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I was in Amsterdam, a friend of mine related the experience he had last night. (Details changed a bit to protect the guilty.) After being out late drinking, he was refused service at several bars for being too drunk. Then, while stumbling around in the streets in search of a bar that would serve them, this craazy biker stopped and punched him in the face completely unprovoked. Then he biked away. Finally he…

So... second guessing someone's retelling of a completely sober, undoubtedly career impacting scenario (one way or another) in the workplace is equivalent to second guessing someone's retelling of a drunken haze of a night? It's folly to think that the same level and style of scrutiny need be applied to both. You aren't wrong to paint the alternate picture for your friend's case, but it's sidestepping the issue in qu…

Yes, my point is that it's completely reasonable to second guess stories we hear. It's a normal, everyday behavior and one which gets us closer to the truth.

Due to her not being drunk I give her retelling more credibility, but that doesn't mean she should be unquestioningly believed.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#93

Post by RodericDay »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #85
RodericDay wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see you posting your libertarian stuff all over HN. I'm not very surprised you also think the real victims here are her coworkers, whom you are unironically trying to liken to prosecuted witches. You've turned this story about a woman being harassed at Apple into a story about her numerous anonymous male coworkers, and dudes at large, being targeted. It's fascinating.

When did I say the real victims were her coworkers? The fact that I think your reasoning is deeply flawed does not imply I hold what you believe to be the opposite view. Pointing out logical flaws in the reasoning of the inquisition doesn't make me a Satanist (or a libertarian, for that matter). (Hint: I'm neither a satanist nor a libertarian.)

In a sibling post you're comparing this woman's experience with a friend retelling a drunken story incorrectly in Amsterdam (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13193171)

Maybe you think your "Draw your own conclusions ;) / Just my 2c" baiting is super clever, but I think it's pretty transparent.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#94

Post by wrboyce »

nilved wrote: post #11

Calling Apple one of the best engineering teams is little much, don't you think?

You genuinely do not believe that Apple's engineering teams is "one of the best"? It is a pretty arbitrary measure, so where would you place them? Would they make your Top 10? Top 100?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#95

Post by yummyfajitas »

diyorgasms wrote: post #90
yummyfajitas wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal. There's no contradiction, if the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not a…

I don't think that the witch trials, which were effectively a small genocide against women, are a particularly effective metaphor for refuting manifestations of sexism.

I suppose that would be true if you think arguments are soldiers in favor of women or against them. You think I believe I raised a +1 for men, while you think I raised a +1 for women by mentioning a time they were victims.

In fact, I believe arguments are attempts to converge to truth. The fact that women were victims in 1631 has no bearing on this discussion.

RoderickDay made an argument that happened to be flawed (here's a more formal argument illustrating the flaws: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence... ), and his argument paralleled the Inquisition's arguments which were flawed for the same reason. Now that his incorrect argument is rejected, we can make better arguments and approach the truth.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#96

Post by [deleted] »

RodericDay wrote: post #93
yummyfajitas wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did I say the real victims were her coworkers? The fact that I think your reasoning is deeply flawed does not imply I hold what you believe to be the opposite view. Pointing out logical flaws in the reasoning of the inquisition doesn't make me a Satanist (or a libertarian, for that matter). (Hint: I'm neither a satanist nor a libertarian.)

In a sibling post you're comparing this woman's experience with a friend retelling a drunken story incorrectly in Amsterdam ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13193171 ) Maybe you think your "Draw your own conclusions ;) / Just my 2c" baiting is super clever, but I think it's pretty transparent.

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#97

Post by ashark »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #88
c0nfused wrote: post #74

Its not a bad idea, but it flirts with unionization which is actively banned in many US states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

Unionization is not banned in any state. Your link does not agree with your dishonest comment. Right to work laws simply prohibit collusion between unions and employers to prevent non-union workers from working. They are no different than other worker protection laws, e.g. the laws prohibiting Apple and Microsoft from forming an anti-poaching agreement.

Well, effective unions–those capable of overcoming the free rider problem–are banned, then. It's like banning all sports equipment but saying Baseball isn't banned, in that you can still get together and say you're playing baseball and go through some of the motions, kind-of, and perhaps even play some cup-ball and call it baseball.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#98

Post by fatdog »

How is women dealing with harassment different than men dealing with other men who are just assholes?

I've been in a number of companies where I've had to call out the behavior of a colleague with a manager because the alternative would have been knocking the guys teeth out. Nothing changes, except maybe a "talking to" by a manager or HR, and said asshole just presses against a different boundary.

I have also found that men organize into a natural hierarchy pretty quickly, where women can miss those social cues, (or disregard them completely) and that can be extremely disruptive to team cohesion.

Many women think nothing of finding the most powerful man in the organization they can and using him as a "friend" to undermine their direct manager. Male executives typically tell male versions of these climbers to get back in line, as it undermines the cohesion of their organizations. It's not like women are connecting with the most senior woman in the organization as a "friend," because those women got to where they were by not getting used as stepping stones.

Firing a woman for insubordination risks sexism liability, but we fire men for that all the time.

This is a more complex issue than just harassment and patriarchy and other bugbears. The workplace can change to accommodate women, but this complaint culture is anathema to doing business.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#99

Post by csydas »

sqldba wrote: post #71

> I was getting preferential treatment because of my “cuteness factor” > Indian women being subservient I agree that these comments don't belong in the workplace. I have seen similar ones lead to people fired on the day and escorted to the door. Thankfully it's relatively rare but some places do take it very seriously. Apple was wrong. In Australia the law is clear and they've breached it. Take them to court and get…

> And this line stood out at me as being divorced from reality especially at a big company. I get it that we mostly want companies to be like this but I think it's also obvious that they're not. They are primarily profit motivated and we're lucky if they don't pollute the environment or commit atrocities in the process. You can look for smaller companies that do it, you can put it in your own company, but if you really felt Apple would be like that then it's being a little naive.

I do not disagree that this is true, but I would suggest that this also is not an acceptable status quo. Complacency doesn't help it, and the unfortunate reality is that most companies just want to get into a battle of wills with those who are targets of harassment rather than take the time to address the issue as they should be.

You are right that this seems to happen once you breach a certain threshold - I assume at that point legal gets more pre-emptive in its protection of the company and tries to divorce itself from the goings-on in Human Resource areas. Plus, as I said elsewhere in this discussion, finding and/or training managers to handle these issues in a fair way is not easy, nor is it easy to be the manager dealing with this situation.

But I don't think that complacency is the answer, and she's not wrong that in many countries, the employer does have an obligation to handle the events. Attributing the sensations to it I'm not sure I fully agree with, but many countries do require investigative procedures, which according to the article weren't really performed well by management at Apple.

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