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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#411

Post by edblarney »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #391
edblarney wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, I looked up a summary of the US law (and it's complicated, there's a lot of dense material) but here is a succinct definition: "Although harassing conduct must be objectively viewed as creating a hostile work environment to be unlawful, the subjective perception of the particular harassed employee is still significant. If the employee does not perceive the work environment to be hostile because of that c…

You are way overthinking this bordering on absurd paranoia. If you make a blonde joke once and someone says "hey, I don't like being teased about that" then you're not going to face any legal consequences. If you persist in the jokes after that point, you might. It's not that complicated to not be a jerk. I'd also gently suggest to reread your post and consider how slanted your characterizations are. Do you know the…

"You are way overthinking this bordering on absurd paranoia."

--> The 'blonde joke' reference is not my characterization - it's actually used as the example in the fairly legal and specific summary that I referenced. Whoever wrote that article (a lawyer, presumably) felt that was a good way to communicate the essence of the law.

So that you'd accuse me of 'being paranoid' when I'm just given you the example offered by what seems to be a very credible legal resource ... is not fair.

I don't know anyone involved in this scenario. I have no idea what happened. This person could have been viciously harassed for all I know. But I do know we've only heard one persons voice, and we've only heard totally un-contextualized snippets. (For example - I do not think that 'being told to ask the waitress for a cheque in a stern voice' constitutes harassment.)

Assuming that what she is saying is 'basically true'... then the guys she's dealing with are probably douche-bags. But maybe not. I'm not going to assume they are and I don't think anyone should, unless of course 'you know the people involved' in which case you have more information on which to make a judgement.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#412

Post by sctb »

hrxn wrote: post #16

Where's the proof? More fake news stories, good job.

This account has been posting primarily unsubstantive, inflammatory comments. We ban accounts that post this way, so please stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#413

Post by [deleted] »

burkaman wrote: post #384
kutkloon7 wrote: post #255

Very well put. I find it very annoying when people declare something to be racist. Racism is the idea that some races are superior or inferior. Unless you literally declare that some races are superior or inferior, what you say is not racist. I do agree that some things might imply that you think some races are inferior, but by declaring something racist, you state that the author has that specific idea and is trying…

What word would you prefer? How would you describe the comment "Black people eat a lot of chicken"? Also, FYI, most (all?) dictionaries disagree with you on the definition of racism. > the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#414

Post by vertex-four »

stcredzero wrote: post #402
vertex-four wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've seen of my communities, I don't generally believe this, but it could be the case in other communities I'm unaware of. Definitely, in the dominant societal structure, if you want to get laid you have to be confident, powerful, and successful. You're not going to go out to a club and get laid unless you meet certain requirements, or are capable of faking meeting them. However, there are subcultures which…

Also, the behaviours of rich, successful male feminists get called into question by feminists all the time. Where did I say that I never see this? (Hint, I don't. You projected this onto me.) The thing is, though, that it's usually much harder to have such attacks stick against the powerful. Also, men who are in positions of power in such environs generally know how to navigate them. It's not that powerful men don't…

> The thing is, though, that it's usually much harder to have such attacks stick against the powerful.

Sure, I'd agree with that. People with power can more reasonably say "fuck this label, it brings me too much criticism, I'm picking another one". Is the solution not to question anyone for harmful beliefs and actions? Feminists criticise each other as a matter of course - if your goal is to avoid people questioning your behaviour, it's not a label you want. But that's an entirely different thing from being "powerful, confident, and successful".

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#415

Post by sctb »

enragedliberal wrote: post #299

I really doubt guys who are scared to say girls get laid. But that's just my opinion.

Please don't create new accounts just to violate the guidelines. Not only do we ban the throwaway (as we have), but we ban the main account as well. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13194008 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#416

Post by majormajor »

wccrawford wrote: post #269
Bartweiss wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think many of the dismissive reactions to these things have a similar basis. It can look like people excusing this behavior, but I think in many cases they've just never seen this behavior. If the worst you've seen at work is friendly teasing and maybe some racy language, it's easy to assume that's what happened and someone is overreacting. If you've seen someone truly corrosive, that assumption changes.…

I think part of the problem is that it's hard (or impossible) to tell how much someone is exaggerating on the internet. Sometimes the answer really is "toughen up" because what they're experiencing is really nothing. Other times, it really is a horrible situation and people should be fired for it.

Why is it just hard "on the internet"? And why do people find certain things easier to believe while finding others easier to dismiss as likely exaggeration?

If we could find easily-actionable answers to those two questions... sigh.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#417

Post by morgante »

kalleboo wrote: post #26

> No one at the company took responsibility for anything other than protecting the company’s liability in case of a lawsuit The tech industry absolutely doesn't need unions /s

A union in this case would actually be more likely to protect the harassers than the victim. Unions exist to protect employees in general even when that hurts specific employees.

You can find plenty of cases where union reps have disputed sexual harassment claims.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#418

Post by optimuspaul »

Bartweiss wrote: post #375
Fnoord wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except its almost never teasing, its bullying. I learned the difference between teasing someone and bullying in elementary school, directly via the education system (ie. the teacher). Repeated 'joke' on/about the same subject? Bullying. Is it mutual fun between/with different subjects, and can the subject themselves laugh about the joke? Teasing. Telling someone to 'shape up' after they heard a joke regarding their r…

I agree with the distinction you're making, but I don't see at all how it supports the "almost never teasing" lead-in. I'm making a general point, and there are plenty of workplaces where "different subjects and people laugh at themselves also" is a perfectly good summary. I also agree that teasing really shouldn't tread on race/sex/etc - even if it's innocently meant it can easily be a topic too raw for human, and t…

I think they way you know it's "almost never teasing" is that these people are not friends, they are co-workers.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#419

Post by sctb »

edblarney wrote: post #197
e40 wrote: post #165

However, a group of other male coworkers who resented the attention I received started directing inappropriate and misogynistic remarks towards me. That statement totally reminds me of accounts I've read of conservatives and how they feel about minorities get special treatment. I just find it really interesting that groups in power react this way while they are still in power. It's a very, very foreign thing to me an…

It would not be foreign to you if it happened to you directly. It's not entirely unreasonable that a loser manager fawns over a hot girl on the team, and gets special favours. It happens all the time with gender removed - i.e. the 'suck up' gets the treats. And more perniciously - it's entirely possible the guys may have a legit point (I'm not implying they do, but indicating that it's a possibility), though obviousl…

It's not up to HN's standards of civility to call names like you have (especially some of those ones), so users were right to flag this comment. The standard is higher in controversial or heated threads, by the way, because incivility in small doses tends to snowball quickly.
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