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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#51
post #20
post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

What you're saying may feel and sound rational. But it is victim blaming.

Congrats, you've assigned an arbitrary label to his questions. Labeling arguments is not the same as refuting them.

Now, is he incorrect? If so, why?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#52
post #20
post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

What you're saying may feel and sound rational. But it is victim blaming.

You can tell somebody about how the bribery system works in another country after they've fallen victim, but that doesn't mean you think they own the blame for a foreign country's bribery issues.

And, if something is a serious issue, like HR motivations to build a case against you no matter what, then people should say it out loud.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#53
I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation.

I imagine there's a different side to this. Her coworkers noticed her getting treated differently and started teasing her about it, in a typical form of male ribbing on each other, in an attempt to equalize the status among the team. Rather than take this in stride and rolling with it, she clammed up and got offended, being used to a very different social style. The mistake was to see herself as the primary victim from day 1, rather than a beneficiary of unearned perks. The empathy she demands for herself she doesn't grant to others, and the reasonable and self-sufficient behavior she expects of everyone around her, she was unable to muster herself.

So here's the long medium post where she is unable to dissociate her experience from her identity. A "personal perspective" that nevertheless puts up a list of changes necessary for supporting women and minorities. She also somehow concludes that despite management not seeming to care and not bothering to reply to her final letter, her experience was nevertheless instrumental in causing sweeping and highly visible changes in policy.

Sorry but, being empowered by being uniquely protected is a contradiction. She opens "as a woman and minority" as if that's a liability, rather than the trump card she's actually playing it as. People who don't use that line still have problems, but they don't get to instruct others on how to solve them. If one of her white male co-workers had gotten bullied, I imagine we wouldn't be reading about it today, and she probably wouldn't have noticed either in her me-bubble.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#54
post #10

>> I also faced hostile remarks about Indian women being subservient and arranged marriages being forced on Indians for generations. Yes. But please, don't present it like the arranged marriages has stopped. It is quite often that young people in the bay area (of both genders) get destroyed, when they fall in love with an Indian women (or men), only to discover that the parents reject a marriage (to a non Indian). An…

What the fuck does that have to do with the article? GJ derailing

She has stated that she has considered comments regarding arranged marriages as personal harassment.

Well, maybe these comments were just comments on this practice, and how that particular part of Indian culture is ruining some lives around the area.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#55
post #40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this should always be the first step. How do you support this statement? It doesn't strike me as a given and you don't really back it up at all.

human language 101: statement != question

To clarify - your statement is, "this [talking to one's harassers] should always be the first step". It is an extremely broad statement and I am curious how you defend it.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the thing about questioning, I understand innocent until proven guilty, but putting the onus of everything on the victim is pretty unfair ..

No, actually, it's not. You're accusing someone of something very serious that puts their livelihood at stake. You need to have proof in that situation. It's a very intense and emotional experience, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to automatically assume the alleged victim is being honest.

And that's what makes victims think 100 times before making a formal allegation .. and why most don't report it.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#57
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> s/women/people Harassment get target _anyone_ But does it target everyone _equally_ ? Of course not, far from it. This is why we pay attention to the groups that get targeted a lot. > Please don't make harassment part of the gender wars. Assuming that it isn't already.

> But does it target everyone _equally_ ? LOL, wat? Each and every case is unique, there is no equal in this. I even gave an example, which has happened to me, to friends, to my wife equally...

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The point that I am trying to make is along these lines: http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/12/8/13882562/online-hara...

Saying "it happens to everyone, it's not gendered" is ignorant at best.

From article above:

> yes, people disagree and are jerks. But they also tend to be much bigger, nastier jerks to women, people of color, and folks in other marginalized groups. Women and people of color can shrug off harassment too, of course, and often do. But they also tend to face more, and more vicious, attacks

"Women .. face more attacks" is what I mean by not equal. "More", meaning "not an equal amount".

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#58
> I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation.

There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal.

The rest of your comment is trash.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#59
post #53

I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. I imagine there's a different side to this. Her coworkers noticed her getting treated differently and started teasing her about it, in a typical form of…

> The mistake was to see herself as the primary victim from day 1...

Except if you read the entire article, she says that she didn't at first see this as harassment, only as an embarrassing situation. It was only after the harassment and intimidation escalated that she looked back to see where it really began.

> ...rather than a beneficiary of unearned perks. The empathy she demands for herself...

Your entire post comes across as something one of her harassers would write in retaliation, and this in particular sticks out. If a woman doesn't want white knights to come to her rescue, that's her prerogative, not for you or anyone else to dictate, and it's certainly not a character flaw or an excuse for continued harassment and intimidation.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#60
While not the perfect solution it seems like a lot of the mentioned issues (standardized communication channels, no conflict of interest) could be solved by installing work councils (I take it they are not wide spread in the US? They are standard in Germany): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_council
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