Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective • Hacker News Board

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#31

Post by roflc0ptic » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 12:52 PM UTC

dep_b wrote: post #14

Lots of down votes because of uncomfortable truth? I've seen this happen a few times and the only thing you need to do is honestly apply feminist values to all people without discriminating to start condemning it. It's like asking for respect for getting addicted to pills by pharmaceutical industries because that's a part of American culture. Maybe some criticism would be in place despite the "it's our culture" thing…

I would say it has downvotes because it's at best tangentially related and has some weird framing: it frames person A who gets feelings for person B as a victim when person B decides not to marry them.

Arranged marriage seems pretty horrible, but in talking to an indian coworker recently, they commented that having to find your partner seemed pretty horrible to them. I really don't see any compelling parallels to pharmaceutical addiction. As someone who is neither religious nor inclined towards marriage, Baptist vs. Anabaptist seems like a more reasonable comparison.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#32

Post by keymone » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 12:54 PM UTC

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #29

pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

> s/women/people Harassment get target _anyone_ But does it target everyone _equally_ ? Of course not, far from it. This is why we pay attention to the groups that get targeted a lot. > Please don't make harassment part of the gender wars. Assuming that it isn't already.

but by targeting harassment properly you'd help all the groups at the same time.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#33

Post by smsowmya » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 12:54 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #18

pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

> The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this should always be the first step. I understand where you're coming from. But... there should be no need for one adult to educate another that bad behavior is unacceptable. Hi! I know you enjoy punching me from behind when I'm doing…

thank you :-) i think that is the point of the article .. we are in a chicken and egg situation here .. no one believes women when they say there are problems and hence there is no progress ..

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#34

Post by smsowmya » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 12:55 PM UTC

vezycash wrote: post #27

I wonder why she didn't record everything - especially since both managers and HR were trying to gaslight her - making her doubt her sanity. If she'd gone to HR with recordings and they brushed aside her concerns then she'd have a much stronger case. Well as she said, a distressed mind doesn't think properly.

if i had the ability to be this clearheaded, we wouldn't be having this problem at all ..

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#35

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 12:57 PM UTC

vezycash wrote: post #27

I wonder why she didn't record everything - especially since both managers and HR were trying to gaslight her - making her doubt her sanity. If she'd gone to HR with recordings and they brushed aside her concerns then she'd have a much stronger case. Well as she said, a distressed mind doesn't think properly.

If you're trying to make people sympathise with you and support you, pulling out a recording device isn't the first thing you want to do.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#36

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 12:58 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #18

pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

> The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this should always be the first step. I understand where you're coming from. But... there should be no need for one adult to educate another that bad behavior is unacceptable. Hi! I know you enjoy punching me from behind when I'm doing…

I'm afraid that HR protection of corporate interests is only tangentially related to sexism and racism. Even if you banished racism and sexism from the earth, that HR machinery will still be doing everything in its power to build a paper trail narrative against you should you make the company uncomfortable in any way.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#37

Post by dm3730 » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 12:59 PM UTC

dep_b wrote: post #14

Lots of down votes because of uncomfortable truth? I've seen this happen a few times and the only thing you need to do is honestly apply feminist values to all people without discriminating to start condemning it. It's like asking for respect for getting addicted to pills by pharmaceutical industries because that's a part of American culture. Maybe some criticism would be in place despite the "it's our culture" thing…

"Lots of down votes because of uncomfortable truth?"

No, downvotes because "the current state of arranged marriages in India" has absolutely nothing to do with the article. You're doing exactly what the author said was done to her.

"they made comments about not liking to work with me or with the growing number of Indian tech workers in the company. I also faced hostile remarks about Indian women being subservient and arranged marriages being forced on Indians for generations."

I have seen a scenario where a black colleague in a on-campus lunch discussion suddenly faced hostile remarks about black people being predisposed to crime. This is the exact same type of problem. Whether or not the topic is true is completely unrelated to how the topic is used to isolate and move the person from the category of a normal team member into "other" who can then be bullied or sidelined.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#38

Post by pmlnr » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:00 PM UTC

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #29

pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

> s/women/people Harassment get target _anyone_ But does it target everyone _equally_ ? Of course not, far from it. This is why we pay attention to the groups that get targeted a lot. > Please don't make harassment part of the gender wars. Assuming that it isn't already.

> But does it target everyone _equally_ ?

LOL, wat?

Each and every case is unique, there is no equal in this.

I even gave an example, which has happened to me, to friends, to my wife equally...

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#39

Post by tomp » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:01 PM UTC

smsowmya wrote: post #30

pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

And the thing about questioning, I understand innocent until proven guilty, but putting the onus of everything on the victim is pretty unfair ..

I agree with you. I definitely wouldn't trust an employee's accusations without a proper investigation, but contacting the alleged abusers and reminding them to behave professionally doesn't seem to be a problem. Especially since (in general) they might be unaware of the effect their behaviour has on you!

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#40

Post by pmlnr » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:01 PM UTC

cdubzzz wrote: post #23

pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

> did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this should always be the first step. How do you support this statement? It doesn't strike me as a given and you don't really back it up at all.

human language 101: statement != question