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Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

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Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#41
post #37
post #9

Hi, kids! Oldster here. Y'all really need to quit with the "oh, $DEITY, I'm looking at the wrong end of 40 and I'll never work again!" Yes, you will. Yeah, give up that dream of game development (which you should have done anyway, regardless of age). Some brah with his half-assed "Uber for..." won't hire you, sure. But there are plenty of places that would love to have someone that comes in before noon, does the work…

Yeah, there are still jobs. On the other hand it's going to be harder to land them. My sister, who looks younger than her mid-30s, was at a job interview wherein the founders told her they didn't want any "old people", meaning people over 30.

My sister, who looks younger than her mid-30s, was at a job interview wherein the founders told her they didn't want any "old people"

Any company so dense that they make statements during an interview that open them to legal liability is truly a company you don't want to work for. Because I guarantee there's a whole host of other stuff they aren't supposed to do as employer and aren't aware of it. Little stuff like, I dunno, "no, you can't put that in an employment contract and ask people sign it" or "actually, that's not how payroll works in this state".

Specific to your sister, if they don't like old people, I'll bet they wouldn't be fond of having girlz in their frat house, either. Unless she's cute, of course.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#42
47 here. The network of people that I've built up over 25 years is still there. If I need a job, I just contact one and they just offer it to me. Why? Because I can do every phase of dev. I can build and maintain the project and budget. I can interact with the heads of all departments and leave them feeling warm and fuzzy. I get the job done. Usually ahead of schedule. I'm a fire and forget developer. If I applied for the run of the mill full stack position, I'd never make the cut. And I don't care because I never setup my future to fall into that hole.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#43

"There were also a couple of companies that assigned me coding tests where they asked me to “print a ladder” and “find repeating numbers.” I rejected those tests not because of arrogance but because my skills were beyond what they thought is needed from the role. And yes, the roles were for a Software Architect. However, instead of testing my skills in architecture and logic, I had to print a ladder on the screen." T…

3. Software Architects don't get to spend all day every day building sandcastles of the mind; sometimes they have to get down in the trenches and write some low-level code. If they won't do it during an interview, they probably won't do it on the job either.

In fact, I'd never trust an architect that didn't. I've worked with too many that can solve problems on a white board but hand wave away real world issues.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there are still jobs. On the other hand it's going to be harder to land them. My sister, who looks younger than her mid-30s, was at a job interview wherein the founders told her they didn't want any "old people", meaning people over 30.

Age discrimination is illegal. And I wouldn't want to work for the next Theranos or zenefits anyway.

Personally I think age discrimination laws are dumb. People who don't want to hire someone my age will find a reason to select younger candidates. I'd rather have it right there in the job req so I don't waste my time pursuing opportunities that aren't there.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#45

I agree with the author. As someone in their late 30's back in the job market due to joining a few poor startup opportunities, its terrible. Software engineering is one of the few career paths that experience doesn't mean shit. Everyone here is saying yes its not a big deal to answer stupid questions like fizzbuzz, and while I do answer them... it really inconsequential to the job. Yes I have to regularly practice on…

> If I could do it over again, I probably would have gone down a different career path and programmed as a hobby.

Really? While I'd love to program as a hobby, I don't know what I'd do as a job then. For me, programming is easy money. I have no what else I could do. Game designer perhaps. Or musician. But those are really better kept as a hobby.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#46
post #20

I've certainly seen some evidence that getting hired is harder now that I'm older, but I'm not actually sure about the causation. I've seen lots of second hand evidence that getting hired is a lot harder now for everybody , regardless of age. This is just a theory, but I think we've got a situation where there are about the same number of software engineers out there looking for jobs as ever, and there are about the…

> I've seen lots of second hand evidence that getting hired is a lot harder now for everybody, regardless of age.

Is this in the US? Because I don't think it's global. I live in Netherland, and I never have any problem finding a new job. I don't know any unemployed programmers, and a lot of desperate recruiters.

Maybe it's the result of Netherland neglecting to invest more in STEM education, and underpaying programmers. Managers tend to get paid better than programmers here, so that's draining the programmer population, keeping demand high.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#47
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age discrimination is illegal. And I wouldn't want to work for the next Theranos or zenefits anyway.

Personally I think age discrimination laws are dumb. People who don't want to hire someone my age will find a reason to select younger candidates. I'd rather have it right there in the job req so I don't waste my time pursuing opportunities that aren't there.

I don't know, most of the time it's pretty obvious I stopped being a "ninja" years ago...

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#48
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spend N years getting to be proficient in a technology. N+1 years later most have abandoned that tech. Do you jump techs or go into management? I assume that's what he/she means.

Learning new technology is part of the job. Though there are still tons of companies stuck with older technologies. Ancient, sometimes.

Sure but every jump is opportunity cost. The older you get the harder it's going to be to pick up yet another language with its own ecosystem, tool chains, frameworks, the works.

Are you always picking up new skills or perspectives by doing that? Sure. Do you still have to be stingy with your resources (time, energy, interest)? Absolutely.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#49
post #3

Yes, if you just want to coast. Coasting is certainly a perfectly legitimate goal, it just doesn't work in this industry. You have to constantly grow the breadth _and_ depth of your skill set. Depth because, from a theoretical perspective, change in computer science is exceptionally slow and incremental. The basic theories and algorithms in the latest machine learning craze, for example, are not much different from t…

Coasting is certainly a perfectly legitimate goal, it just doesn't work in this industry. Maybe not when you're young, but you can coast just fine as an older software dev. I'm doing it right now. Now, it might not look like coasting. Sure, I get pulled in to build test infrastructure from the ground up, prop a build server to fit the source control flow that a particular team has chosen, can walk a dev through writi…

I think you may be insufficiently fearful of the current and future economy. Or maybe I'm just too fearful. But I grew up rather poor, and while I thankfully learned to shed most of the proletarian work ethic that keeps poor and working-class people in economic shackles (that is, the political mindset, perceptions of character, and in particular the kinds of labor considered meaningful), I still believe that the prudent economic life demands a constant hustle.

My financial advisor says the average cost of a 4-year private education will be well over $350,000 in less than 20 years. (It'll be that in just a couple years for the elite private schools, including non-Ivy League elites where most students don't get much aid.) Now, I don't plan on paying for my son to attend a private university if we can help it (public undergrad is fine by me), even though we might be able to swing it without too much damage, but that number serves to really drive home the cost of keeping your family securely middle-class.

Also, yes, middle management is always an escape. OTOH, middle managers are always the first to get the axe during layoffs. I probably misinterpreted the original question, but moving to middle management is not something I aspire to. I respect it, but I'm not a people person and I don't like managing people. I've been fortunate that the few people I have managed I was able to hire myself, people who I felt were much more self-motivated and self-directed than the average engineer.

If I can't continue hacking for an income, I'll probably return to the law.

I left it unsaid, but IMHO ageism is rife in the software industry. There'a ageism in almost every industry (including the law, it's just reversed ;) but IME it's comparatively greater in the software industry. Many people won't bother even denying it, and aren't afraid to excuse it.

I saw ageism even when I was in my early-20s, working with an original Amiga veteran (a bone fide historical figure in the Silicon Valley) whom other young engineers would constantly deride, arguing he was too "behind the times" and just "didn't get it". It was all bollocks of course, and I understood that. (Though I never completely understood why he chose to stay in the trenches, and continues to do so AFAIK, despite the fact he could probably join a VC firm.) Now that I'm older and approaching grey beard status (an age which decreases every year), I won't let myself forget the mentality among the junior engineers, as well as the bean counters, recruiters, and other managers who not only tolerated it, but enabled it.

In light of the ageism, if you want to continue hacking, and you want to minimize your risk of income volatility later in your career, you have to constantly dedicate yourself to improving the depth and breadth of your knowledge. That's a good idea in any industry, but especially in software. And that's why I don't see coasting as a viable option.

But people's situations and preferences vary, of course. Coasting can make more or less sense, depending on context.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#50
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning new technology is part of the job. Though there are still tons of companies stuck with older technologies. Ancient, sometimes.

Sure but every jump is opportunity cost. The older you get the harder it's going to be to pick up yet another language with its own ecosystem, tool chains, frameworks, the works. Are you always picking up new skills or perspectives by doing that? Sure. Do you still have to be stingy with your resources (time, energy, interest)? Absolutely.

Depends on how much you enjoy learning, I suppose. I love learning new things. I'm not stingy on things I love. I don't doubt it's going to get harder to learn after retirement, but that's still more than 20 years away for me.
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