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Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

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Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#11
post #2

I am a Software Dev in my mid 20s and posts like this always make me nervous. I love my craft, and want to improve it, but recognize it will be another 5 to 7 years before I am truly proficient. Just in time to be obsolete. How do I combat this? Better networking? Starting my own business? Consulting? I would like to believe that people who find jobs don't write posts like this to provide the opposite experience. But…

I hear a lot of hiring horror stories. Perhaps it's because my career has been on the East Coast, or because I only apply to places I'm generally interested in and have researched/stalked (vice a shotgun approach) but I've never suffered any hiring silliness. Maybe I'm just lucky? I'm 37 now.

I generally assume the absurd hiring practices are either large companies that have become institutionalized and thus have terrible processes free from the scrutiny of sanity (Google, etc) or are small companies that don't really know what they are doing or need. Both sound like terrible places to work.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#12
I agree with the author. As someone in their late 30's back in the job market due to joining a few poor startup opportunities, its terrible. Software engineering is one of the few career paths that experience doesn't mean shit. Everyone here is saying yes its not a big deal to answer stupid questions like fizzbuzz, and while I do answer them... it really inconsequential to the job. Yes I have to regularly practice on sites like hackerrank that really have little to do with my capabilities in executing in a real environment, but really its just memorizing and practice that are almost unrelated to my job function.

Sure you can blame people for not keeping up with their skills and knowledge set like mikestew, but a lot of times this is not what you're interviewed on. Its like interviewing companies are so lazy as to not check your references. Most of the time if the interviewer is knowledgable they should be able to weed out people that are lying on their resumes. Maybe the problem is not with the people lying on their resumes and people that are doing the interviewing.

If I could do it over again, I probably would have gone down a different career path and programmed as a hobby.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#13
post #10
post #2

I am a Software Dev in my mid 20s and posts like this always make me nervous. I love my craft, and want to improve it, but recognize it will be another 5 to 7 years before I am truly proficient. Just in time to be obsolete. How do I combat this? Better networking? Starting my own business? Consulting? I would like to believe that people who find jobs don't write posts like this to provide the opposite experience. But…

> [...] it will be another 5 to 7 years before I am truly proficient. Just in time to be obsolete. How do I combat this? Better networking? Starting my own business? Consulting? Judging from how you use it, I think that under the word "obsolete" you mean something different than how I understand it. Care to clarify?

Spend N years getting to be proficient in a technology. N+1 years later most have abandoned that tech. Do you jump techs or go into management?

I assume that's what he/she means.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#14
post #9

Hi, kids! Oldster here. Y'all really need to quit with the "oh, $DEITY, I'm looking at the wrong end of 40 and I'll never work again!" Yes, you will. Yeah, give up that dream of game development (which you should have done anyway, regardless of age). Some brah with his half-assed "Uber for..." won't hire you, sure. But there are plenty of places that would love to have someone that comes in before noon, does the work…

Pushing 40 now, I agree with most of this. However, I will say that the way recruiting works for devs is just atrocious.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#15
post #3

Yes, if you just want to coast. Coasting is certainly a perfectly legitimate goal, it just doesn't work in this industry. You have to constantly grow the breadth _and_ depth of your skill set. Depth because, from a theoretical perspective, change in computer science is exceptionally slow and incremental. The basic theories and algorithms in the latest machine learning craze, for example, are not much different from t…

Coasting is certainly a perfectly legitimate goal, it just doesn't work in this industry.

Maybe not when you're young, but you can coast just fine as an older software dev. I'm doing it right now. Now, it might not look like coasting. Sure, I get pulled in to build test infrastructure from the ground up, prop a build server to fit the source control flow that a particular team has chosen, can walk a dev through writing unit test and integrating them into their flow. Hire some testers and dev with a high percentage of "good fits". Hell, manage a team if you need me to. Deal with the client in a professional manner instead of coming across as some basement dweller? All of that before my first cup of coffee without breaking stride. But only because of years of experience does it become second nature.

The tech stack? Meh, you've learned a dozen, you've learned them all. That's the easy part, and when it's not easy I'll go read up. But to me, the truly hard stuff gets easy after enough years and one can cruise through the non-tech parts that (to me) are the hardest part of the job. The only thing I still struggle with is putting up with bullshit in a tactful manner. That gets harder with each passing year, probably because experience makes it more obvious and harder to ignore.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#16
post #14
post #9

Hi, kids! Oldster here. Y'all really need to quit with the "oh, $DEITY, I'm looking at the wrong end of 40 and I'll never work again!" Yes, you will. Yeah, give up that dream of game development (which you should have done anyway, regardless of age). Some brah with his half-assed "Uber for..." won't hire you, sure. But there are plenty of places that would love to have someone that comes in before noon, does the work…

Pushing 40 now, I agree with most of this. However, I will say that the way recruiting works for devs is just atrocious.

However, I will say that the way recruiting works for devs is just atrocious.

I heartily agree, but off-topic. It sucks for everyone, young or old. Maybe, just maybe, as the oldsters roll of to management that'll change, but meet the new boss...

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#17
post #9

Hi, kids! Oldster here. Y'all really need to quit with the "oh, $DEITY, I'm looking at the wrong end of 40 and I'll never work again!" Yes, you will. Yeah, give up that dream of game development (which you should have done anyway, regardless of age). Some brah with his half-assed "Uber for..." won't hire you, sure. But there are plenty of places that would love to have someone that comes in before noon, does the work…

I really don’t think that’s what he’s saying, and if at least some of this doesn’t resonate with you, you’ve never looked for (programming) work after 40. The problem is that programming is, by it’s nature, “strange” work. In every other job, you perform some function for a long time, learn all the ins and outs of it, and then move on to manage other people who are performing that function: break their work down into tasks, assign different people to different tasks based on skill sets, suggest timeframes, etc.. That’s true from sandwich making up to neurosurgery. Programming work seems to defy that natural progression. I’ve been doing this for 25 years now, and I’m no better at breaking software development projects down into discrete tasks for _other people_ to carry out than I was when I started - and I’ve never met nor worked with anybody else who could, or even pretended they could. So we have this odd career where you start out as a programmer, and you stay a programmer until you retire. Couple that with the outsiders expectation that programming is getting easier when the reality is that the opposite is true, you have a _lot_ of people with a very low opinion of programmers as professionals - i.e. if you were actually any good, you wouldn’t have to be doing this any more.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] it will be another 5 to 7 years before I am truly proficient. Just in time to be obsolete. How do I combat this? Better networking? Starting my own business? Consulting? Judging from how you use it, I think that under the word "obsolete" you mean something different than how I understand it. Care to clarify?

Spend N years getting to be proficient in a technology. N+1 years later most have abandoned that tech. Do you jump techs or go into management? I assume that's what he/she means.

But own business or consulting is nowhere near a response to that. That's why I think he/she may mean something else.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#19
It can be bad at startups and certain companies, as they don't want to pay the higher salaries required and want people who will work like dogs.

The latter is funny, as when I started out (and maybe even now), I was always up for putting many hours into the product I was working, but only if it was worth doing and interesting to me. What I quickly learned was that these projects did not exist, especially at larger companies, and if they did, they were almost impossible to join. And even then, once on the project, political BS and favoritism could easily leave you working on an irrelevant/meaningless feature.

The reverse of "aging out" ("they're young, so they're stupid") is what I experienced when starting out.

While at eBay, the idiot managers did everything in their power to try to paint me as a stupid know-nothing and would constantly try to box me in. Whenever I did anything that showed ability, knowledge, etc, they'd freak out and try even harder to stomp me out. Working longer hours (or having to work longer hours) wasn't a display of anything other than me inconveniencing them and other employees, as now they have to stay late as well. Then right in line with such accusations, there'd be claims I'm not working enough, am a slacker, am always late (these Bay Area companies have a "show up and leave whenever you want" policy, but then magically everyone is always late), etc.

While at Google (2010), there was nothing but crap to work on, then later there'd be statements along the lines of, "you won't really be able to work on anything until you're a Senior Software Engineer or a Staff Software Engineer, as it's assumed anyone at the Software Engineer III level or below doesn't know what they are doing." There's always an excuse or some BS explanation as they tried to trap everyone into working long painful hours on nothing special, while dealing with endless BS.

Google was strange. There was overt discrimination based on age (older folks would complain about it, but then turn around and say the above about younger ones), gender, ethnicity, school attended, and anything else they could use, but it's magically never been mentioned publicly. They'd also talk down to QA Engineers and contractors like they were nothing.

Google was swarming with off-putting, arrogant, anal retentive pricks that would use everything as an excuse to say the most insulting garbage. It was a hellish environment in which many were on edge (anxiety) or miserable (depressed), while working long and hard on an irrelevant part of nothing special (something that's also magically never been mentioned publicly).

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#20
I've certainly seen some evidence that getting hired is harder now that I'm older, but I'm not actually sure about the causation. I've seen lots of second hand evidence that getting hired is a lot harder now for everybody, regardless of age.

This is just a theory, but I think we've got a situation where there are about the same number of software engineers out there looking for jobs as ever, and there are about the same number of jobs as ever, but for some reason the system has evolved to where applicants have to apply to a much larger number of positions than they used to, and employers have to screen a much larger number of applicants. When this happens, applicants get much less picky about the positions they apply for (and have to get less picky) and employers end up screening on more and more arbitrary criteria.

Part of this might just be what you could call the "online dating" problem, where the problem is that the technology has made it way too easy to make superficial contacts, so contactees get super-dismissive, and contactors decide that if they're going to continue playing the game they're just going to have to make an even greater number of superficial contacts, contactees get even more dismissive, and eventually everybody just gets really jaded.

Another part might be (and I should stress again that I'm just hypothesizing here) that because there are so many applicants for each position now, that there is, almost by necessity, a screening layer of professional HR hiring people (not just the classic recruiters, but "sourcers", recruiters working directly for employers, full-time HR people who specialize in hiring, etc.) And it's actually a real problem because these people aren't, in general, competent to be screening applicants, and indeed can't be, unless they are former software engineers themselves.

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