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Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

latimes.com

251–260 of 326 posts

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weak argument. Do better. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13189009

Ok, so they quit. What does that do to Facebook or the US government? Not much. If they really want to change things, then you have to enter politics as a group. Ask a Union where it gets its power. This pledge is not a factor in US politics. There is a reason that the US has to have laws to prevent union busting and those specific circumstances are the same for these type of pledges. The difference is the people ple…

So, then, which is it:

1. You don't believe enough people will sign this. What percentage would need to sign it to make it significant?

2. You don't believe people will actually quit their jobs, despite signing something that puts them a single Google query away from revealing this position to any future employer. What would it take for you to believe this specific commitment, without adding additional commitments?

It's got to be one or the other, right? Which is it?

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tunisia is not in the Middle-East.

It's de-facto a M/E country. The North African countries are Arabic, Muslim, and are geopolitically part of the Arabic sphere of influence which is de-facto the same thing as middle east. 'North Africa' I find to be not descriptive. The best term would be 'Maghreb' - but nobody knows what that means. M/E is an appropriate geopolitical designation.

> The North African countries are Arabic

Wrong my friend. Morocco and Algeria for example have more than 50% ethnic berbers [0]. Saying it's part of the middle east show your lack of knowledge of the region and its distinct culture.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#253
post #8

It's a ridiculous and naive view of the world. Of course it already exists. For example on facebook. For example in the mosques. Everybody was warned, everybody could have seen this coming. But most people didn't give a fuck. Welcome is post privacy. I didn't need have to be that way. We can still turn this into post-post-privacy. But only if we face what we have already done.

Mosques don't keep track of members. You can go into any Mosque and hang out if you wish.

While I believe that's true for non regular visitors I bet my ass most manage a donors and members list in google spreadsheets.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do the police explain all this stuff to your 'distant relative'? Or rather, do you also know what the police think from some source other than your 'distant relative'? Or is the 'distant relative' the only source you have? (I'm not sure what noun to use for your source there so I have stuck to matching your usage, my repeatedly using the quotes isn't sarcastic or anything like that)

The police did not 'explain' this to my distant relative, rather, people in organized crime know a lot about criminality and police. And no, it wasn't he that explained to me how cops keep a tab, so much. I meet RCMP every once and a while. Moreover, I was well aware of how 'the case' went against my distant relative from the RCMP's perspective, it was all rather well laid out. Organized crime is very well understood…

"Does the organized crime in Toronto have some sort of heroic devotion to statistics? If not, it seems we are discussing a third hand anecdote."

Do you need 'statistics' to understand the difference between Google and Facebook culture?

Tunisian and Somali culture?

Or maybe if you visit and know Googlers and FBers, or if you visit Tunisia and/or know a lot of Somalis, you start to get the idea?

People in organized crime have jobs, just like those at Facebook. Their cultures are distinct, and generally known to those in the business, like cops, just as you would be familiar with FB culture if you visited or even knew just a few of them. There are no secrets there.

Are HN readers so completely socially inept that they have no grasp of the cultural attributes of our society? I don't think so :)

None of what I said is news to anybody.

Hint: organized crime is usually run something like this - the Italian Mafia imports most of the hard drugs, they sell it to the Bikers who have regional networks, and the Bikers push it into the street gangs and small time dealer networks. That would be East Coast mostly. West Coast, I'm less familiar because it's Asian cartels and I don't know if they use their own networks or bikers or both. This is Canada mind you.

Distribution territories for drugs are very tightly controlled, by various entities, and everybody in the business (including cops) knows who runs which territory, usually.

The Somalis don't have any of these layers sorted out, yet there is heavy involvement in drugs, I think they bring it in and distribute themselves, to specific communities. Which probably causes tension & violence. I'm not sure. But I am sure wherever they go, whatever layer they are at, they are facing 'competition' from an incumbent, and disputes are settled through violence or the credible threat of it, and sometimes a buyout/payoff between more 'friendly' parties, I don't think the Somalis fit into the nicely tuned Mafia/Biker relationships. They don't do 'sit downs', as it were, in the classical sense.

Again, this is all common knowledge in that line of work.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so they quit. What does that do to Facebook or the US government? Not much. If they really want to change things, then you have to enter politics as a group. Ask a Union where it gets its power. This pledge is not a factor in US politics. There is a reason that the US has to have laws to prevent union busting and those specific circumstances are the same for these type of pledges. The difference is the people ple…

So, then, which is it: 1. You don't believe enough people will sign this. What percentage would need to sign it to make it significant? 2. You don't believe people will actually quit their jobs, despite signing something that puts them a single Google query away from revealing this position to any future employer. What would it take for you to believe this specific commitment, without adding additional commitments? I…

> It's got to be one or the other, right? Which is it?

No, it does not as neither is what I wrote or believe.

The pledge is an empty gesture matched against corporate or government interests. Pledgers do not have the same protections that Unions have now. They will be replaced.

Groups organize and exert political power by playing the same game in DC as every other group that succeeded. The faster tech wakes up and learns from Unions and political action groups the better people will be protected. Influence the politicians, force them to pick favorable judges, do the PR work to scare the shit out of politicians that would oppose your agenda, and then you succeed. Why the heck do you think we have an unfavorable bill every damn session? Heck, the Head Start lobby is better at this then people in technology.

Once again, I can point to a long history of groups entering politics affecting change, can you do the same with a pledge to quit?

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#256

Can we build a database of the programmers idiotic enough to believe such a pledge will actually make an iota of difference? A thicko / navel-gazingly hubristic persons database. Gees laudable goal but even contemplating that such a goal might be attainable, is a total eye-roller.

HopelessIdealistsDB :3 I almost joined a startup with four hopeless idealists. And then I realized that they weren't really interested in making money (so that we can all retire early and send our kids to nice schools), they were chasing a windmill. It would've been great for all us to not waste our time interviewing & vetting each other.

[deleted]

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#257
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm more concerned about the 'populist anti-muslim sentiment' that might arise, "...that might arise"? What have we been seeing the last year, when the winning presidential candidate proposed banning Muslims from entry to the US, and as recently as a few weeks ago (and well after the election) said with respect to a Muslim registry that "he would implement that [a registry], absolutely" [1]. Meanwhile, various of h…

> proposed banning Muslims from entry to the US I was actually at the rally when he announced this. Trump wants a freeze on immigration from countries that are actively producing a large number of jihadis which, surprise, happens to be predominantly Muslim countries. The premise being, they need more scrutiny and we need time to implement such. Of course I'm sure this whole time he's just been pulling from George W's…

This is just classic FUD. The probability of being harmed in a terrorist attack is tiny and the probability of any given immigrant being a part of a terrorist attack is also tiny.

This is a mountain out of a mole hill. You'd be better off eating less junk food and paying more attention while driving rather than concern yourself with these edge cases.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#258
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> proposed banning Muslims from entry to the US I was actually at the rally when he announced this. Trump wants a freeze on immigration from countries that are actively producing a large number of jihadis which, surprise, happens to be predominantly Muslim countries. The premise being, they need more scrutiny and we need time to implement such. Of course I'm sure this whole time he's just been pulling from George W's…

This is just classic FUD. The probability of being harmed in a terrorist attack is tiny and the probability of any given immigrant being a part of a terrorist attack is also tiny. This is a mountain out of a mole hill. You'd be better off eating less junk food and paying more attention while driving rather than concern yourself with these edge cases.

I mean, Europe has been having issues with migrants. It's not unreasonable to avoid a known issue. America has been running quota and limits anyway.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police did not 'explain' this to my distant relative, rather, people in organized crime know a lot about criminality and police. And no, it wasn't he that explained to me how cops keep a tab, so much. I meet RCMP every once and a while. Moreover, I was well aware of how 'the case' went against my distant relative from the RCMP's perspective, it was all rather well laid out. Organized crime is very well understood…

"Does the organized crime in Toronto have some sort of heroic devotion to statistics? If not, it seems we are discussing a third hand anecdote." Do you need 'statistics' to understand the difference between Google and Facebook culture? Tunisian and Somali culture? Or maybe if you visit and know Googlers and FBers, or if you visit Tunisia and/or know a lot of Somalis, you start to get the idea? People in organized cri…

Right, that's a really nice anecdote.

If you want to say stuff like Wherever there is a 'new' Somalian community, the crime (drugs and related) offenses are off the charts with over-representation. In Toronto - a big slice of the 'violent murder' pie is committed by Somalis - and they are near 0% of the actual population. in association with building a database of undesirables, maybe don't be stunned when people ask you to back up your anecdote with some data.

That it might be illegal to gather such data in Canada doesn't change the nature of your anecdote though.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, then, which is it: 1. You don't believe enough people will sign this. What percentage would need to sign it to make it significant? 2. You don't believe people will actually quit their jobs, despite signing something that puts them a single Google query away from revealing this position to any future employer. What would it take for you to believe this specific commitment, without adding additional commitments? I…

> It's got to be one or the other, right? Which is it? No, it does not as neither is what I wrote or believe. The pledge is an empty gesture matched against corporate or government interests. Pledgers do not have the same protections that Unions have now. They will be replaced. Groups organize and exert political power by playing the same game in DC as every other group that succeeded. The faster tech wakes up and le…

I'm not sure how to map this response to my question. It sounds like you're saying, "so few people will sign this that it will be easy for any tech company to make up the loss". How many would have to sign for it to be different?
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