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Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

latimes.com

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Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#231

Post by maxerickson »

edblarney wrote: post #155
goatsi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be illegal to collect that data. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history... >Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous yea…

There are some legal and political difficulties around the topic. But the Police are very aware of who is up to what. Cops in Toronto work with various groups all day, every day, they know what is going on. They know when it's 'Asian gang' vs. 'Bikers' vs. 'Somalis' vs. 'Mafia' etc.. Somalis have formed an ad-hoc kind of organized crime syndicate, maybe somewhat similar to the Sicilian folks, but with totally differe…

Why do the police explain all this stuff to your 'distant relative'?

Or rather, do you also know what the police think from some source other than your 'distant relative'? Or is the 'distant relative' the only source you have?

(I'm not sure what noun to use for your source there so I have stuck to matching your usage, my repeatedly using the quotes isn't sarcastic or anything like that)

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#232

Post by tptacek »

ryandrake wrote: post #173
zodPod wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are millions of people in the industry.. Without factoring in any exact data, I'd say it's no less than 20% of those millions voted for Trump and of those I'd be willing to bet a portion would support this initiative. It's "merely a gesture" because it doesn't mean shit and it won't prevent anything. I do agree with the guy above that said that it'll start a conversation but I wouldn't be surprised if t…

All it takes is a tiny team of people who "need that job".

No, you're misunderstanding the concept of the pledge.

Most of the people who signed the pledge at (for instance) Google[1] are never going to be anywhere near the actual creation of misuse of databases for deportation or religious discrimination. The pledge isn't about denying labor for the actual project.

What it's about is radically altering the cost to companies of having anyone comply. It doesn't matter than you can find 5 random people who need some extra cash to do the scut work of actually abusing the database. When it gets out --- and it will get out --- the company loses team members.

If enough people sign this, the market pressure they're exerting becomes significant, and must influence decision making.

[1]: by the way, more people from Google signed the pledge than from any other company, and hey Facebook there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to lap them.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#233

Post by tptacek »

yclept wrote: post #195
wjossey wrote: post #2

It's a lovely gesture, and an important sign of solidarity; however, it'a merely that, just a gesture. I hope that SV and the tech industry leverages its wealth and technical legal capabilities to fight these sorts of actions in court, unlike their responses to privacy intrusions by the federal government, British intelligence, and other foreign groups.

I solemnly pledge to do nothing 8)

That's OK. We'll defend your right to do nothing with our own livelihoods. That's how things are supposed to work.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#234

Post by tptacek »

milge wrote: post #3

Sadly, there will always be tech workers willing to do this for the right price. As I get older, I'm starting to wonder if not following my "tech morals" would've brought more success.

Of course there will be. So what? If enough people sign, it doesn't matter if you can throw some extra cash at a couple people to do the scut work. When it gets out that it happened --- and it will happen --- an untenable number of people leave the company.

It's about market pressure.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#235

Post by tptacek »

zodPod wrote: post #129
olalonde wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here but there are also a lot of tech workers who do not regard building such a database as unethical. A common fallacy on HN is to assume people who hold differing views necessarily do so egoistically, which is sometimes true but not always.

Yeah it's entirely possible that there are a small percentage of tech workers who would fully support this type of move. I too have noticed HN users seem to just assume everyone shares their views.

I think we generally assume that the people who sign the pledge (and many others) share our views. I don't know how much more we need to litigate than that.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#236

Post by 1ris »

idlewords wrote: post #222
1ris wrote: post #8

It's a ridiculous and naive view of the world. Of course it already exists. For example on facebook. For example in the mosques. Everybody was warned, everybody could have seen this coming. But most people didn't give a fuck. Welcome is post privacy. I didn't need have to be that way. We can still turn this into post-post-privacy. But only if we face what we have already done.

This comment distills into "I told you so". Facebook has all this data. We're trying to do something about it. What are you doing?

Yes, it does, because I did. I tell people not to use facebook. That's not enough, but everything less is in vain.

No technical solutions for political problems my ass. If politics is unfixable (witch was foreseeable) a technical defence was necessary. It was in plain sight what was going to be possible. Any people where talking about post privacy like it was good thing because they failed to acknowledge this.

The first to undo this is to acknowledge the mistake. Without it we are bound to repeat it.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#237

Post by 1ris »

kevinburke wrote: post #94
alva wrote: post #83

Facebook are happy to provide a database of black people [0] to advertisers. People don't choose their race, but they can choose their religion. Arguably, allowing one over the other is supremely unfair. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/22/facebooks...

That may be distasteful but there is a wide, wide gap between letting advertisers target ads to groups based on ethnicity, and sending datasets of people with a certain ethnicity/religion to advertisers or to the government. The pledge is mostly focused on the latter.

As if governments would take no as a answer. If the data is there it's accessible.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#238

Post by sheraz »

zouhair wrote: post #188
sheraz wrote: post #99

This initiative is cynical and gross. Here's why I would say that: Originally posted in a thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13169587 Do you really need to have sent a pull request to remind you to not do things that make you feel morally bankrupt? That you signed it leads me to conclude that you have actually bought into the "Trump is a Nazi" rhetoric. I'll explain: 1. Neveragain.tech - the name itsel…

When he put a white supremacist in the White House this applies more to him than other presidents.

Who is the white supremacist?

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#239

Post by idlewords »

1ris wrote: post #236
idlewords wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment distills into "I told you so". Facebook has all this data. We're trying to do something about it. What are you doing?

Yes, it does, because I did. I tell people not to use facebook. That's not enough, but everything less is in vain. No technical solutions for political problems my ass. If politics is unfixable (witch was foreseeable) a technical defence was necessary. It was in plain sight what was going to be possible. Any people where talking about post privacy like it was good thing because they failed to acknowledge this. The fi…

So your contribution is telling people not to use Facebook?

Thank you for your service.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#240

Post by protomyth »

idlewords wrote: post #220
protomyth wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck getting Facebook or the US Census to do that. This is a useless gesture that means very little. I guess some people get to feel better about themselves. The first step would be some reforms in consumer protection laws dealing with privacy and information sharing. Just watch how much certain SV firms spend to opposed those changes.

The US census has robust protections against storing or disseminating personally identifying information. They do it right. Facebook has hundreds of employees mortified by what their management is walking into (the Trump tower, among other things). They have a lot of influence if they choose to use it.

> The US census has robust protections against storing or disseminating personally identifying information. They do it right.

Can you point to the place where they say they don't store your personal information because that is part of their job. They try very hard not to release that data in an individually identifiable manner, but they have the individual data.

If Facebook's employees are NOW mortified, then they haven't been paying attention for a lot of years. They will just be outsourced or have people who need the job take over.

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