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China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's…

> cruel def: willfully causing pain or suffering to others, feeling no concern about it. Shaming is undesirable, but I wouldn't say publicly knowing how you rank compared to others would constitute "cruel". Its really how the world works - in sports you see exact stats of how your do, publicly traded companies/CEOs are meticulously analysed publicly on how they perform etc. etc. There does need to be a balance btwn h…

Sports are zero-sum games by construction.

Executive jobs wherein you can get fired for losing to your competitors compensate you for this risk by paying fuck-you money on a yearly, sometimes even daily basis. If the CEO of Exxon is fired for failing to overtake BP, he could never work again and still die with more in the bank than I will ever earn.

Ranking in academia does not reflect real-world conditions.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#302

As a Chinese I would say that the points in this article, though true, are not among the driving reasons. If you ask me, I would present this list: 1. Practically, there are only 4-5 cities suitable for 'tech talents' in China. The properties prices in these cities are comparable to the ones in NY and SF while the salary isn't. BTW: you have very little chance to be able to get married without a property under your n…

Thanks for saying these! As a Chinese as well, I agrees with you with these facts, they makes China less favorable to many of us. For some of your points, I'd share some different interpretations. 1. Yes - Housing is a problem. I think it is a salary problem. As tech corps in US earns money from the whole world, most Chinese tech corps can only attract Chinese customers. So the value generated from a same piece of co…

As a foreigner who lives in Shanghai for almost 8 years, the list would be a bit different:

1) pollution - Since the Disneyland has opened, things are improved. But above the regular days, it is depressing when finally the weekend came and you can't leave the 4 walls.

2) overpopulation - I don't mean the large population, but the overpopulation. There is no space for cars, yet everybody is buying, sometimes a two lane road becomes barely one, because one lane is completely blocked by parking cars and bikes going randomly. Parks are small and spare in the city. There is barely playground for children only expensive indoor ones.

3) People.. I know I know, but it drives me mad, you can only queue up like once in a year when nobody will come to the front to you. I can't count how many times I've seen that cars just blocking the ambulance in rush for no reason. When you stop with your car because the road is blocked, it's guaranteed sby from the back will try to overtake you either from left or right. My friend had a light accident with a motorcyclist (50%-50%), he brought him the hospital and paid everything. Few months later he was dragged to the court and was charged for 28K RMB (~$4K) (including the bills he paid in the hospital, fortunately he kept the cc receipts, the repair of the bike cost like a new one etc. even if it is mostly paid by the insurance, very depressing to see this amount of fraud). And so on.. Of course you can meet nice and good people, but still the daily routine will be different (also gave up counting how many times i was almost hit by a car or motor).

4) The first green is like 4 hours driving. And not easy drive but bloody fight. Have to be fully alert, people even overtake you on the shoulder of the road + I can't recall I ever could drive without seeing accidents, see barrels or other things on the road.

5) internet - after 7-8pm it is basically cut, so overloaded, no website loads that is not hosted in the country. You have to use some kind of vpn for everything! ... your gray hair is granted. No form of video-chat works beside wechat. Skype though exists, in the current year, was really painful communicating with my parents.. as my experience goes only works during working hours or on mobile net. In this year when i go home, I started to consider it as an offline zone.

.. sorry to be honest, no pun intended. It is how it is (My wife is Chinese so Im halfway there also :)... and things are improving with time, just way too slowly, Except 2. and 4. that can't be really fixed. (can't imagine anytime soon that it will be a dream destination..)

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#303
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but English is still phonetic. If the speaker slows down it's much easier to understand the person, even (or especially) if they speak in monotone, and even if they don't insert breaks in their speech. Inflection in English primarily serves to assist rapid processing, but especially in business communication it can be dropped entirely. Something similar can be said for word order, and to a significant degree eve…

> One thing I have learned in my cross-cultural experience is that Americans, British, and to some extent Australians heavily abuse sarcasm and cultural references.[1] > [1] I suspect Germany and maybe even France might be similar in that regard. I doubt the phenomenon is unique to Anglophone countries; it's probably partly a function of modern Western culture. But the nature of English probably plays a part, too. An…

The connection between language and humour is an interesting topic, and brings to mind the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (or more generally, linguistic relativity [1]).

It can be difficult to tell how much of a cue (or "clown" as you mention) is required/necessary for the joke to be understood. For example, even American comedians often deliver the punch-line in an overt/exaggerated way.

I've noticed (possibly broader) Chinese and Dutch humour depends much more on slapstick and stereotypes. Of course I probably wouldn't even register the more subtle humor from those cultures.

I've often wondered if there are unique (semantic & syntactic) qualities of the English language that lend themselves to more to particular kinds of (deadpan or sarcastic) humour, such as semantic ambiguity (cf. double entendres), variations in phrasing & tone), etc.

Even the German language can be abused for a similar purpose, as the following quote from [2] illustrates:

> Kafka often made extensive use of a characteristic particular to the German language which permits long sentences that sometimes can span an entire page. Kafka's sentences then deliver an unexpected impact just before the full stop—this being the finalizing meaning and focus. This is due to the construction of subordinate clauses in German which require that the verb be positioned at the end of the sentence. Such constructions are difficult to duplicate in English, so it is up to the translator to provide the reader with the same (or at least equivalent) effect found in the original text.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is learning tones much harder than learning all the weird vowel and consonant sounds that English has? I'd always though of English and China as examples of hard languages in terms of sounds and languages like Spanish and Japanese as easy in terms of sounds.

In my experience, if you're sorta close in English, you can sort of get your point across, even if you mispronounce words, because the mispronounced word means no sense so you start thinking about a possible explanation. In Chinese, a different tone actually is a valid word with its own meaning, so it's a bit harder for you to get your point across.

I've met foreigners who have had TERRIBLE tones but still manage to get their point across in Mandarin because of context. Your explanation for why English works despite mispronunciation is the same reason why Chinese works: context. For example, let's assume we were talking about our families. You want to say: 我爱我妈 (wo ai wo ma) "I love my mother". But if you said 我爱我马 (wo ai wo ma) "I love my horse", I would assume you meant you love your mother because of the context.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#305
This article is just typical Western nonsensical way of looking at China that let ideology fool the you and your audience.

If you look at China in a realistic way, its pro/cons are very obvious:

Pro:

1. Chinese market is huge

Cons:

1. This market is very competitive. Local giants are not far from their US counterparts, and they learn(copy) quickly.

2. Pays are high comparing to other jobs in China, but not living up to US level(but on par with Europe and Japan).

3. Long hours and no play.

4. Air pollution.

5. Language barrier for Westerners. You cannot go too far if you don't understand Chinese.

6. Foreigners, even if they want to, have nearly zero chance to be a permanent resident. (Extremely anti-immigrant policy, but the reason is actually consistent. CCP think China is too crowded, so they don't need extra people, they don't even let its own citizens to have more than 2 kids! :P)

How hard is that to figure this out? However, this article is just making everything looks like it is about their cherished liberal ideology. No, if China has money to dig, people will go. But it is not for foreigners, and probably not worthy it.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#306

The bankers that I've talked won't go (back) to China because of the pollution, specifically the smog. They refuse to put their children in that environment. Cultural, social, language, and food differences are all superficial reasons not to go to, or stay, in China. They can be dealt with an open, understanding mind. However, the salary or career benefits don't make up for it when your children and spouse are breath…

Totally this. I have a friend who's running his company's Shanghai operations. They installed four air purifiers in their home just to keep the smog out - and Shanghai is a relatively clean air city! They have to check the smog report every morning to see if it's okay to take their kid outside. I would never raise a family in that environment.

Always makes me angry seeing foreigners growing up their children here in shanghai..

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really disagree with you. We have had a couple of dozen communist states, and every one of them has turned out bad. That's because communism is basically an unworkable system. See, for instance, Hayek's argument on information and economic decision-making. In fact, Marx claimed that capitalism in advanced economies has contradictions that would eventually lead to its being overthrown by the workers, but that has ne…

> I really disagree with you. We have had a couple of dozen communist states, and every one of them has turned out bad. That's because communism is basically an unworkable system. All of those have been Leninism or its descendants, which break strongly from Marxism. Starting with the required starting conditions. > In fact, Marx claimed that capitalism in advanced economies has contradictions that would eventually le…

This is going to sound like concern-trolling, but I'd thought that Marx was afraid of the possibility of the Social Democrats winning (i.e., a modern mixed economy forming) -- since this would leave the current holders of property-qua-power still possessing it, while making the workers comfortable enough to no longer desire revolt. But my memory here's faulty, and I suspect it might have been Lenin who was hostile to the Social Democrats -- although Lenin has never struck me as a particularly subtle thinker, to say the least. Did the Social Democrats even exist as a faction in Marx's time...?

(As for the rest: let's hope that the term "modern mixed economy" continues to spread. Calling the postwar Western system "capitalism" has led to a lot of confusion.)

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#308

Well, the US lost the top guy in machine learning, Andrew Ng. In the US, he was a professor at Stanford, not even the head of the department, with a few grad students. Now he's Chief Scientist and VP at Baidu.

To say Ng is THE top guy while ignoring Hinton/LeCun is pretty hilarious. Ng still works in US though.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#309
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my observation: If you're Indian, being "relatively well-off" is not your only advantage: (White) Americans tend to view you in more favorable terms. It's almost as if we welcome you with open arms.

I am an Indian in the US. I get the general idea of what you are saying, but I should note that it has a strong implicit assumption of a very liberal community. In such communities (say in SF or NYC), I am welcomed pretty warmly. On the other hand, in a bunch of mostly male, middle-aged, Christian tech people in Middle America, I am regarded with a mildly welcoming/neutral attitude at best and open hostility that is…

That "mildly welcoming/neutral attitude at best and open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism" attitude proves my point. That's much better than what folks from Black Africa, many with a much lighter skin tone than you, experience.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#310

As a Chinese I would say that the points in this article, though true, are not among the driving reasons. If you ask me, I would present this list: 1. Practically, there are only 4-5 cities suitable for 'tech talents' in China. The properties prices in these cities are comparable to the ones in NY and SF while the salary isn't. BTW: you have very little chance to be able to get married without a property under your n…

1. Part, When compared with average salary. Some of my friends spend 3 hours on the way between home and office everyday...even they worked in big tech companies like Baidu. For marriage, most of my classmates without house get married, this is a problem but not "little chance". 2. Yes. 3. Part. 4. Don't know, it's OK in my opinion. 5. Yes, it terrible..air/water/land

Some more: 1. food security, this is also terrible 2. lots of people don't follow rules like run the red light and cutting into the line 3. Health care, it's cheap, but the quality is poor, especially in small cities.There's more than 10 medical accident among my relatives

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