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China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

bloomberg.com

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Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#291

Post by falsestprophet »

duaneb wrote: post #83
louhike wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The american administration is bad too for foreigners, so I think it can be summarized by how attractive the country is.

You mean how the child of an immigrant is President?

You mean how the child of an immigrant is President?

The president's father was never an immigrant. An immigrant is someone who comes to life permanently in a new country. He was a foreign student with a wife in Kenya and eventually returned to Kenya with an American third wife upon the completion of his studies.

Several presidents have been a child of an immigrant: Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, James Buchanan, Chester Arthur, Woodrow Wilson and Herbert Hoover.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#292

Post by ctchocula »

caoyangs wrote: post #264
ctchocula wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, the word is 码农 and the literal translation is code peasant (similar to how we call programmers code monkeys in US).

碼工 is also correct. Programmers are literally 程序員, where 程序 means program, and 員 means worker. People also call them 程序猿, where 猿 has the exact same pronunciation as 員 but means monkey. So basically programmers are also called code monkeys in China.

Interesting, didn't know that! Can you comment a bit on the context in which 码农 is used in China? I'm curious how it differs from the usage of "code monkey" over here where it's usually in jest/tongue-in-cheek.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#293

Post by sytelus »

blacktulip wrote: post #68

As a Chinese I would say that the points in this article, though true, are not among the driving reasons. If you ask me, I would present this list: 1. Practically, there are only 4-5 cities suitable for 'tech talents' in China. The properties prices in these cities are comparable to the ones in NY and SF while the salary isn't. BTW: you have very little chance to be able to get married without a property under your n…

How much is race or religion factor as well? I'd read somewhere that it is nearly impossible to immigrate to East Asian country if at least one of your parent wasn't native born of that country. The laws around citizenship simply doesn't allow that. In some East Asian countries (perhaps Japan?), someone outsider can't get citizenship even if married to citizen of that country. Wouldn't lack of long term future prevent talents from other countries migrate in first place?

I tend to think that US is able to suck up of large portion of talent from all around the world like vacuum cleaner because laws are race and culture blind. When I look at winners of Nobel prize or Field medalists or Pulitzer price winners or popular movie directors or music performers or entrepreneurs, it doesn't escape to me that immigrants or their children make up disproportionate number of these people while all other countries bloodlet their talent.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#294

Post by saycheese »

sethammons wrote: post #32
saycheese wrote: post #18

Something ironic about an "open" culture being critical of a "closed" culture. Reality is the American's tech cultural is at its core a very closed community. Even within America, trying to create a startup outside of the Bay Area, which is insanely expensive area to do business, will require exponentially more effort, luck, etc.

I'd be interested in seeing data on successful start ups vs location.

Venture Capital by city is a common measure: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/01/global...

Though what that does not account for is the ratio of equity given for capital raised; my understanding is that on average per percent of equity that the amount of capital raised will be double that of anywhere else; means that really, amounts shown for the Bay Area should be double due to the value of that capital in a deal.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#295

Post by edblarney »

blacktulip wrote: post #173
ar15saveslives wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primary/secondary education in China is very, very cruel Could you elaborate? Based upon what I see here in Canada, chinese immigrants maniacally push their children to all functions that can be found around. And it's considered good when there're many chinese children in your kid's class.

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's…

"The idea here is to motivate them work harder to avoid the shaming - or to motivate their parents to push them harder to avoid the shaming. It may work for some. But I see more harm done than good here."

Yes, I think that this is very counterproductive.

Finnish kids don't even go to school until age of 7 - and they do as well as the top chinese students.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#296

Post by novaleaf »

Hasknewbie wrote: post #98

The article is avoiding the elephant in the room: the lack of openness and information access is merely a consequence of having an illegitimate regime where everything is ruled by coercion, corruption, and political connections. While you're there, if some company dumps chemicals in your backyard, somebody with a badge hounds you, or your employer refuses to pay you, good luck getting your day in court. They'd be doi…

> a consequence of having an illegitimate regime

I'm not sure how you can claim that, unless you consider anything other than Direct Democracy to be illegitimate.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#297

Post by edblarney »

_audakel wrote: post #218
blacktulip wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's…

> cruel def: willfully causing pain or suffering to others, feeling no concern about it. Shaming is undesirable, but I wouldn't say publicly knowing how you rank compared to others would constitute "cruel". Its really how the world works - in sports you see exact stats of how your do, publicly traded companies/CEOs are meticulously analysed publicly on how they perform etc. etc. There does need to be a balance btwn h…

"but I wouldn't say publicly knowing how you rank compared to others would constitute "cruel". Its really how the world works "

This is not true.

A) It's ludicrous to wrap 'personhood' and 'identity' out of how well someone is able to study and write arbitrary tests. Completely wrong.

What if some kid learns better visually, than orally? And he's actually much smarter?

What about the kids that are smart, but poor at taking tests?

What about the kids who have massive advantage over others (i.e. tutors) - does that make the other kids dumb?

'In the real world' - there's no such thing as 'someone being better at taking a test' than others. It makes no difference in the 'real world'.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#298

Post by jackvalentine »

throw12313221 wrote: post #10

For people from Russia or other countries China could be attractive option. Take-home money can be good, especially with low taxation. US is not really a competition, it is relatively unfriendly to foreigners, very hard to move there. But I think China wants to mainly increase talent retention. There are many Chinese who stay in US after finishing their studies there. China wants those educated people back.

> But I think China wants to mainly increase talent retention. There are many Chinese who stay in US after finishing their studies there. China wants those educated people back.

Do you mean their Chinese talent? Because for everyone else it's practically impossible to make long-term decisions about staying in China. Your work visa will always be tied to a company and a marriage visa doesn't entitle you to work. The mythical "green card" visa for all intents and purposes doesn't exist.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#299

Post by serge2k »

kmicklas wrote: post #243
js8 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But I think China wants to mainly increase talent retention. There are many Chinese who stay in US after finishing their studies there. China wants those educated people back." They should consider democracy, then. Educated people like that. I was born in a communist country. It's not surprising to me that smart people want to leave.

Communist != undemocratic China happens to be neither communist or democratic

How is china not communist?

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#300

Post by mratzloff »

_audakel wrote: post #218
blacktulip wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's…

> cruel def: willfully causing pain or suffering to others, feeling no concern about it. Shaming is undesirable, but I wouldn't say publicly knowing how you rank compared to others would constitute "cruel". Its really how the world works - in sports you see exact stats of how your do, publicly traded companies/CEOs are meticulously analysed publicly on how they perform etc. etc. There does need to be a balance btwn h…

> There does need to be a balance btwn hypercompetiton, and "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.

Yes. Praise can be more damaging than criticism in many cases.[1][2] Certain types of praise in the form of encouragement can be very good things. Certain types of constructive criticism can be empowering.

> a little pain and suffering makes you stronger

What is "stronger"? More emotionally resilient? In my opinion, suffering just results in risk aversion. There is not a lot of positive that emerges from it. Note that I'm not referring to establishing boundaries, which may be what you're referring to with your daughter.

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/smart-moves/201411/the-...

[2] http://www.parentingscience.com/effects-of-praise.html

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