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De-Googleify Internet

degooglisons-internet.org

171–180 of 266 posts

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#171
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UX is usually worse for non-customers because the main product offering of many online services simply cannot exist without strong relationship with customer (probably Quora is not the case). Because of that, experience of registered users receives much more attention. Most of the world is happy with it and is not going to deprive themselves from cool stuff on privacy grounds. I'd say it's counterproductive to fight…

The forced-login isn't to improve product quality, it's to make more money on ads. StackOverflow/Exchange works great without forced login to view content.

whynotboth.gif

Stack overflow works better when people provide answers and feedback on prior answers; persistent login greatly increases the chance that someone will leave a reply, which in turn helps future users.

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#172
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why 'should' you?

I was more poking fun at myself for thinking you "should" when the other way actually works fine.

You're actually more likely to get instruction-type results if you ask "natural" questions. You can test this by searching for "changing oil" and then "how do i change my oil" and comparing the results.

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most crucial thing for the future of information freedom is to fix American intellectual property and network access laws. "Walled gardens" exist because anyone who effectively frees a user's data on the user's terms is at least sued, if not jailed, under statutes like the Soviet-era, pre-Internet Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, and luddite interpretations of the Copyright Act that consider a RAM copy that exists f…

"Walled Gardens" have nothing to do with IP laws. The user obviously retains copyright on whatever he posts/uploads to fb/twitter/etc. If the user grants you permission, IP laws cannot be used to stop you. The CFAA did indeed come into play with the guy who wanted to automate Facebook profile transfers. But apart from the questions of that specific case, it's just not true that there are millions of people waiting to…

>Most of the value in these networks is in "network effect", i. e. it's usefulness is a function of the number of other people using it.

No, the only reason "network effects" matter on something that is useful specifically because it makes the transfer of information instantaneous and fluid is because we have artificial barriers (CFAA/IP) in place to keep that data stuck with one vendor.

Without this, the number of people using Facebook to access Person Data would be transparent to the average user, much like the number of people using Chrome or Firefox to access hypertext. And much like Chrome and Firefox, the switching penalty would be reasonably surmountable for most users. It's the difference between learning a new interface to the data (as in switching from Chrome) and being cut off from the data completely (as in switching from Facebook).

SaaS sites have network effects specifically because we (accidentally) legislated those effects into existence. There are no physical barriers locking people in -- the "wall" of this garden is entirely artificial.

>"Walled Gardens" have nothing to do with IP laws.

>If the user grants you permission, IP laws cannot be used to stop you.

This is 1000% false. IP laws absolutely CAN and HAVE been used to stop people from accessing online resources, even to get information that the user has authorized the data gatherer to collect. That's because when you download a page from one of the major tech services, you're not just downloading the user's copyrighted content to which the host has a license, you're also downloading the host's copyrighted code and parsing through it to extract the user's requested data.

That's been interpreted to be an infringement under the Copyright Act on multiple occasions: Ticketmaster v. RMG, Facebook v. Power Ventures, Perfect 10 v. Amazon (in which the judges ruled Google's use fair on appeal, because it was Google), and others. While you may be able to argue there's an implied license if the robots.txt is blank, that is only going to last you through the first notification that the host doesn't like your activity, which is not necessarily formal (cf. Craigslist v. 3Taps), which would matter both for CFAA and copyright purposes. It's not an issue limited exclusively to something sneaky done by Power.

Even if IP law itself was irrelevant (and it's not), there would be a lot of work to do here just in fixing up the laws around network access and blocking onerous Terms of Use.

>it's just not true that there are millions of people waiting to migrate away from Facebook if only they could transfer their photo library.

Whether you believe someone could do a better job than Facebook or not, surely you don't believe it should be, for all practical intents and purposes, illegal for them to attempt to do so.

>That people do not do so has nothing to do with your conspiracy theories.

Please try to start this type of service and get back to me about "conspiracy theories" after a C&D destroys your business, as it has hundreds of others, including mine.

Not to be rude, but you clearly have never dealt with this in a serious manner. Please be more careful before you go around making assumptions and dismissing the perspective of those with direct experience.

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching a child to use Google will show you that there is indeed quite a learning curve. It is not intuitive how you evaluate your results and refine your search to get good results.

That's possibly just inexperience on the child's part

What? The claim was that it doesn't require learning to use. If lack of experience is detrimental, then it needs to be learned.

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#175

It's unlikely to happen as the vast majority of the public simply does not care . There is a deep technological disconnect. The only way to de-google-ify is to bring about mesh network that runs on our mobile devices or volunteer run nodes. Maybe you need to take the Skytrain to a remote part of the city to access specific information because there are no nodes there yet. The centralized infrastructure created betwee…

You're right they don't care, but that doesn't mean it's hopeless. It's up to developers and companies to actually create the pure utilities the free software movement advocates, and sell it not on "freedom and decentralization," but on "our products give you more value than Google's do."

We'll never get the public to care about these things unless we silently provide them behind actually-useful products. We consumers build our lives off readily-available utilities, generally not caring about what they're doing behind the scenes, because we want a blackbox we can trust. We all want to save time and get on with our lives. So we need more companies that exist as utilities, grow their network / market share, and don't sell out at the end of the day. Of course, creating the conditions to make that happen is a whole 'nother thing :)

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People I know think before they act and sometimes do better. They also see much more than an "industry" or a "product". Best thing of all: we may have ≠ POV and still not hurt each other. Freedom!

Freedom is wonderful, but we have a saying in the USA (from a famous court case): the rich as well as the poor are free to sleep under bridges. The meaning of this is that freedom without good resources is not actually that great. After all, you could be completely free from Google and every other technological capitalist firm right now by throwing away your computer, phone and so on, and returning to ink and paper f…

Here is something wonderfully tangible:

  Alan Kay and a couple of friends built an entire system in 2.8MB in 1998[1].
You can actually DO stuff with these techs: "How Smalltalk Enables World Record Breaking Performance"[2]

Guys behind V8 are smalltalkers.

Nothing "theoretical" here, just science. I do not care about pompous theory. For example, I do not believe in real numbers. I let "theory" to poets and most academics.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUud1gcbS9k [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9dgLW9m7w

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#177
post #27

> These services track us everywhere, while claiming to give us a better “user experience”. That's kind of the problem though; they usually _do_ offer a better user experience. If we want users to start using open source software rather than walled garden solutions from large companies, we're going to have to start building open source solutions which offer a comparable user experience to proprietary ones from large…

I personally believe the approach proposed by Daplie is the way forward, not only because it allows users to take back control of their own data, but also because you don't have to give up on a friendly user experience to do so: https://daplie.com/

Hmm. Go read their TOS about hyperlinking and see if you still think they're friendly.

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#178

Not to get too political, but I find the idea that the internet is better being decentralized and non-corporate to be the new Libertarianism. Sure, these ideas sound nice, just like how "small government" and "free market", but how well do they work in practice on a large scale? Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily against such concepts as ideals, but in the end they are hard to implement in their pure form as the…

> Sure, these ideas sound nice, just like how "small government" and "free market", but how well do they work in practice on a large scale?

Serious question: do you know anything about the history or workings of the Internet or the ARPANET? Or how email or HTTP works? Your understanding seems to be completely opposite to reality. It took a lot of effort for Google, MySpace, Facebook etc. to build centralized systems on a large scale to interoperate with the existing decentralized Internet, and for the amount of time and effort invested into them they do not actually work that well compared to the regular Internet.

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#179
post #139
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long felt that RMS/FSF's very specific and nonintuitive usage of "free" was intended to be misleading. If someone says "free" (which has many, many different meanings, all positive) when they really mean "copyleft" (which has one very complicated meaning), they're not trying to clarify anything, rather they're trying to muddy the waters so that people who don't understand copyleft or the FSF's political philosop…

> very specific and nonintuitive usage of "free" Supposedly it is because the word libre isn't recognized well enough in English. Quoting: "To emphasize that “free software” refers to freedom and not to price, we sometimes write or say “free (libre) software,” adding the French or Spanish word that means free in the sense of freedom. In some contexts, it works to use just “libre software.”" And: "We stand for freedom…

> Perhaps liberty software or liberal software would work

Parts of both of those terms have negative connotations in the US. They'd probably be fine everywhere else, but in the US, they'd be really damn polarizing.

Re: De-Googleify Internet

#180
I think this is a good initiative. Pretty much like Wikipedia is to Mediawiki.

I hope they can implement single sign on so you can reuse your account across the different services.

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