No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems • Hacker News Board

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#311

Post by snowwrestler » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:34 AM UTC

SiVal wrote: post #65

theli0nheart wrote: post #38

> Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s behavior. Instead, he advocates for a radical technique in which parents positively reinforce the behavior they do want to see until the negative behavior eventually goes away. We adopted a puppy a little more than a year ago and this was the exact advice we were given for how to train her. Puppies and little kids are remarkably similar, and the k…

Punishment might make you feel better, but it won’t change the kid’s behavior. This claim (from the article) is nonsense. I've changed the behavior of my kids countless times with punishment. I realize that the attitude I am supposed to take is that when someone with Ivy League credentials espouses a currently fashionable theory that my own observations contradict, I am supposed to believe the theory and not my own l…

If punishment changes behavior, why does anyone get more than one speeding ticket? Why does recidivism exist at all?

Punishment primarily changes the visibility of behavior. Kids who get punished by their parents a lot learn to avoid their parents and hide their feelings and behaviors. To the parent it can look like the punishment worked.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#312

Post by Elvie » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:39 AM UTC

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #85

SerLava wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The teenager is really just a petulant, kind of half-assed adult. The psychologist frames it the same way as the 4 year old, but knows it's really an entirely different ball game. The teenager actually has a functioning long-term memory, for instance. Obviously the theoretical teenager and my comment are exaggerating it, but there's truth in there.

The 4 year old also has a functioning long-term memory. Our oldest (4 1/2 now) often recounts minuscule, random details of events 6-12 months ago that neither me nor my wife had mentioned since. It's true that most adults have few memories from childhood, but that's something else entirely.

My nearly 5 year old remembers events from last Christmas in great detail, so they have a better long term memory than many people credit them for

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#313

Post by arkitaip » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:44 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #302

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

There are 3 additional ideas that are important, but I didn't see you mention in your comment. 1) You praise the heck out of the child when they do accept the choice. This is hard because you have to remember to notice NON-drama, which is typically not noteworthy to people. You over-remember when things went bad and under-remember when things went fine. I do too--everyone does. (Politicians exploit the heck out of th…

Re #3: i think it's a very astute observation that parenting should be much more proactive than reactive. If you play the long game and model your kids' behavior in situations when they aren't struggling or you're having a fight, you both seem to learn much easier.

Heck, I would say that parenting ultimately starts when we're kids ourselves with the values and experiences we are taught. For instance, most of us don't care for kids until we're in our 30s, which makes parenting that much harder. Imagine how different it must have been historically when older kids care for the younger ones, giving everyone involved experience with parenting. On a personal level I'm fortunate to have three great nieces in various ages and try to learn what I can from them and of course parent them in myriads tiny ways (it's impossible to avoid, I've realized. You either make conscience efforts or not but you can't avoid parenting if you interact with kids).

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#314

Post by bbcbasic » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:47 AM UTC

nhebb wrote: post #254

maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

Yeah, after having three kids with widely different temperaments, I can only offer two pieces of advice to other dads: - You're going to have to change diapers anyway, so you might as well get good at it. I was a one-man Formula 1 pit crew of diaper changing. AMA. - Invest in a vasectomy.

AMA: what about the super runny pound of goop poo that leaks through both nappies.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#315

Post by ryanmarsh » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:48 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #297

Afton wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and unlimited time. So much advice of the form: "Really sit down with the child during a tantrum. Listen to their concerns, and make sure they feel heard. Only then engage with them in problem solving.". Uh. Sure. I'll just do that. I mean, dinner is going to burn, we'll be late for swimming, and I was on my way to wipe my other child's butt before helping my _other_ other child with their homework. I can only assume…

I don't have a nanny or a housekeeper. My solution to that have been: Sometimes let dinner get ruined, and include a discussion of consequences. Sometimes allow yourself to be late, and do the same. Sometimes tell them they have to wait and ignore them - yes I know its hard - while helping your other kids. A ruined dinner or getting late to swimming are one time events. Teaching your kids that tantrums will "work" in…

As much as I hate parenting advice, this. Trying to hold everything together and simultaneously shape the habits of humans with free will and their own ideas without resorting to violence doth a crazy person make.

So sometimes we eat burned dinner cuz someone was acting like an asshole. Sometimes play dates "fall through" because someone thought they'd obligate a parent to do something they hadn't even discussed. Good God nothing teaches like bad experiences, and my wife and I can maintain some shred of sanity. Actually that's not fair, our children are a joy ( and exhausting).

It's one thing for your teenager to sob because she didn't have any spending money for the surprise trip somewhere with great shopping because she blew all her money instead of saving it for a great opportunity. It's a completely other thing to have to learn that lesson as an adult.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#316

Post by Evgeny » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:49 AM UTC

tux1968 wrote: post #298

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

People don't acknowledge this enough, one size doesn't fit all. It bothers me most when people discuss diet and obesity. "Just don't eat so much!" is often given as slightly condescending advice. Such advice reflects a personal experience where your body isn't screaming in hunger 24 hours a day. Different people have different metabolisms too, turning food into energy to be spent, or locking it away instantly as fat…

Different people have different metabolisms too, turning food into energy to be spent, or locking it away instantly as fat -- makes a huge difference

This is not true - at least the "huge" part.

https://examine.com/nutrition/does-metabolism-vary-between-t...

"Metabolic rate does vary, and technically there could be large variance. However, statistically speaking it is unlikely the variance would apply to you. The majority of the population exists in a range of 200-300kcal from each other and do not possess hugely different metabolic rates."

Calories-In-Calories-Out is a rather limited view of the situation.

https://examine.com/nutrition/what-should-i-eat-for-weight-l...

"In conclusion, losing weight requires a negative energy balance, which can be obtained by eating less, as we have seen, but also by exercising more."

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#317

Post by bbcbasic » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:50 AM UTC

simplexion wrote: post #86

Why do so many of these child psychologists not have children of their own? Edit: This is hyperbole. I am talking about this particular child psychologist not having children. I understand it doesn't mean he might not have a great understanding of how a child's mind works but it means he has never had the stress of raising a child and knowing how hard it is to keep your cool with them. Especially when they are as ene…

> Why do so many of these child psychologists not have children of their own?

They know what they'd be letting themselves in for

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#318

Post by arkitaip » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:51 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #113

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think you're right about adjusting the method according to the child but Kazdin is a director of the Yale Parenting Center, and they seem quite experienced in dealing with "problematic" children. But also, giving an exhaustive method to complex social issues, e.g. parenting, isn't really possible because of all the edge cases you may have, which is why we have "free form" methods like therapy, I guess?

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#319

Post by arkitaip » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:52 AM UTC

bbcbasic wrote: post #314

nhebb wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, after having three kids with widely different temperaments, I can only offer two pieces of advice to other dads: - You're going to have to change diapers anyway, so you might as well get good at it. I was a one-man Formula 1 pit crew of diaper changing. AMA. - Invest in a vasectomy.

AMA: what about the super runny pound of goop poo that leaks through both nappies.

They use sawdust to clean liquidy messes at the subway so...

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#320

Post by ryanmarsh » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:54 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #289

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

If you allow your kid to get away with the 3rd option, then your kid now knows that your choices aren't genuine. None of these kind of methods work if you let them know that when you say there are two alternatives there really are three. And I've seen this work often enough when we've had friends of my son come over that we often see act up around their parents, but that will try that shit once with us and then follo…

To me a person who stubbornly presents two choices when there is in fact a reasonable third is an asshole.

Maybe don't create contrived situations where a toddler can crush your logic and it becomes a battle of wills.