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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#181

Post by tw04 »

Analemma_ wrote: post #178
tw04 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why that would humble her. If she trained dogs, then she already knew 99% of the dogs out there with behavioral issues are a direct result of the owner. There are VERY rare circumstances where it's just a genetic defect (for lack of better term) in the dog, and it just has insurmountable issues. After fostering/owning roughly 75 dogs in my life, I can say 9 times out of 10 that consistency and discipline…

You are exhibiting the Just World fallacy. It makes you uncomfortable to believe that sometimes the universe is random and chaotic, and that sometimes there are dogs and children whose bad behavior really isn't the fault of their handlers, so you shield yourself with a dogmatic (no pun intended) belief that it's always someone's fault, even when the empirical evidence (like a crummy Chihuahua owned by a professional…

So you didn't bother to read my post? Because I never once said it never happens/is universal law. I said it is the majority of the time... you know, exactly what you just said.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#182

Post by BuuQu9hu »

brianwawok wrote: post #107
adrr wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how it equips children for the real world where there is both positive and negative reinforcement. If they only deal with positive reinforcement, will they have the emotional conditioning to deal with negative reinforcement. For example, dealing with a negative review or getting skipped for a promotion. Something we probably all experienced, getting yelled at by a manager. Anecdotally, being raised by an asi…

Perhaps you are conflating failure with discipline. We need to allow kids to fail, because you will fail in real life. Sports with no scores is dumb. Fairly tangential to if we yell at our kids or not.

Sports with no scores is fun

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#183

Post by codingdave »

DanBC wrote: post #60
dom0 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitting children is legal in the US?

Yes. There isn't a single US state where corporal punishment by parents is illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_hom... > Corporal punishment of children by parents or other legal guardians is legal in the United States and social acceptance is generally high, through allowances made for "moderate physical discipline" (using this or similar language) in most states' laws regarding assault,…

Delaware.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/delaware-law/delaware-corporal-...

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#184

Post by kem »

JonnieCache wrote: post #45

While this is framed here as a "radical" technique, it's just BF Skinner's Operant Conditioning, which has been one of the foundations of behavioral psychology for nigh on 100 years. If you're wondering if it really works, yes, it does. One of the key elements of it, especially when using it on people, is accepting that the subject is likely to execute the behavior badly for the first few iterations, but you have to…

So... this is one of my pet peeves about developmental psychology.

This "punishment doesn't work" mantra is rampant in the field, and it's totally unsupported by the scientific evidence.

What is true is that punishment on its own is relatively ineffective, and that you need to reward desired behavior to shift it from something undesirable to something desirable.

But if you read the learning literature, it's pretty clear that the most effective way to change behavior is to punish undesired behavior and reward desired behavior.

The article is promulgating this ideological distortion of operant conditioning that's common in developmental psychology.

Maybe there are better or worse ways of implementing punishment, and the best thing is to combine it with rewards; in fact, sometimes rewards on its own will work. But the idea that punishment is ineffective is incorrect.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#185

Post by [deleted] »

JonoBB wrote: post #146
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

There was a TV programme in the UK called The 3 Day Nanny, about a super nanny who would come in and sort out problem children and parents in 3 days. It ran for a few seasons. Fast forward till she had her own child, and I saw an interview with her. She was completely shattered. Like a wreck. She had her own difficult child, and coupled with little available help from others, she couldn't cope. She looked and sounded…

[deleted]

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#186

Post by Afton »

analog31 wrote: post #143
andrewfromx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

haha exactly. I love when really smart people write articles about dealing with children and then you discover they are non-parents themselves. Or, they are work-a-aholics and never interact with their own kids 24/7 like full time parents do.

Or they are parents, but they're not me. I've got two kids, both teenagers now. In my view it's not just that kids are different, but that parents are different too. My impression is that most parenting advice assumes that the parents themselves have unlimited self discipline, organization, and emotional stamina.

and unlimited time. So much advice of the form: "Really sit down with the child during a tantrum. Listen to their concerns, and make sure they feel heard. Only then engage with them in problem solving.". Uh. Sure. I'll just do that. I mean, dinner is going to burn, we'll be late for swimming, and I was on my way to wipe my other child's butt before helping my _other_ other child with their homework.

I can only assume that the people constructing the advice have a nanny and/or a housekeeper.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#187

Post by userbinator »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important.

This sounds astoundingly similar to what software developers are doing when they remove features and customisability and then retort "but you can still choose between X and Y"l nevermind the fact that X and Y are still a horrible substitute for the A-to-Z that they replaced --- and more unsettlingly, it seems like it does work on much of the user population.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#188

Post by maxxxxx »

tw04 wrote: post #181
Analemma_ wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are exhibiting the Just World fallacy. It makes you uncomfortable to believe that sometimes the universe is random and chaotic, and that sometimes there are dogs and children whose bad behavior really isn't the fault of their handlers, so you shield yourself with a dogmatic (no pun intended) belief that it's always someone's fault, even when the empirical evidence (like a crummy Chihuahua owned by a professional…

So you didn't bother to read my post? Because I never once said it never happens/is universal law. I said it is the majority of the time... you know, exactly what you just said.

You were not very precise with your numbers. You say "99%", "9 out of 10" and "very rare". To a lot of people these mean "negligibly small". With dog training, child rearing and most everything else in life you increase your chances for success by a lot if you follow certain rules. But let's not look down at the people who fail. It may be their fault or it may not be their fault.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#189

Post by caseylabs »

3131s wrote: post #160

I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with kids back in the US and here, the contrast in beha…

I have to agree here. I lived in a tiny village in Laos for 4 months a few years back, and I have to say, the six year-olds were more mature, independent, and emotionally sophisticated than some 16 year-olds I knew back home.

Favorite slightly-related story: while teaching a class of 8 year-olds one day, a student in the back opened up his desk, and pulled out a machete. My heart stopped for a beat. He then proceeded to sharpen his pencil with the machete, then place it back in his desk.

Man, I miss Laos.

Anyways, the North American trend to never leave your kids unattended really seems to have stifled their independence and ability to strive on their own, and it's so evident when you travel to some developing countries.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#190

Post by pavel_lishin »

biofox wrote: post #4

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference. This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might…

> It seems like it might be useful for managing employees / colleagues too.

Please don't treat your colleagues/employees like a fucking child.

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